Here is a piece of an article on tipping from the NY Daily News:
BY LORE CROGHAN
NY DAILY NEWS BUSINESS WRITER
It’s hard to know when and how much to tip.
From a customer’s point of view, tips are a reward for a job well done.
But for service workers in the city’s low-wage jobs, tips make the difference between earning a living – or not.
Some workers are counting on you to make their hours of standing on their feet, wiping your children’s noses, fixing a burst pipe or cleaning up your cuticles pay off.
But what is right? The rules are more elaborate than you might think.
FOOD
# Restaurant service: The average restaurant tip in New York City is 18.8%, said restaurant-guide guru Tim Zagat. Leave 20% if you’re really happy with the service, 18% if the service was good and 15% if you’re unhappy, he advised. “Tip because you want to say ‘Thank you’ – reward good performance,” Zagat said.
Even at modest coffee shops, where New Yorkers used to leave tiny tips for sit-down service, they’re now putting 15% to 20% on the table. “People have more money in their pockets – they’re feeling more generous,” he said.
# Drinks at a bar: 15% to 20%.
# The worker who makes your take-out salad or sandwich: Put money in the tip box only if you want to. “Do what you feel good about,” Zagat said.
# The Starbucks barista: Needs no tip – at least that’s what management said. “We don’t expect our customers to pay anything extra to receive our legendary service,” Starbucks marketing manager Dan Lewis explained. The tip boxes at Starbucks registers are there “to avoid loose tips on tables and counters throughout the store,” he said.
# Pizza or other restaurant delivery: 10% – or 20% if you live on a high floor of a walk-up, said Joe Pasquale, the owner of Joe’s Pizza in Greenwich Village.
You can read the entire article at the NY Daily News
There is a lot to comment on here, but I’m not feeling great so will just make a couple of points.
1. Zagat is an expert on tipping?
2. Leave 15% tip at a restaurant for bad service?! If I get really bad service I tip just enough to let them know I didn’t forget. Feel free to challenge me on this; maybe I’m the one that is wrong.
3. I’m likely to tip a higher percentage at a sandwich or coffee shop – I know how little they make, though I suppose they might make it up in volume.
4. I usually tip a bartender at an ordinary bar around a dollar, but have reservations about it because I remember the large amount of money I made as a bartender back in the early 80’s. On the other hand, I would definitely give more to a bartender that is making very creative and interesting drinks.
What do you think?
pollo elastico says
#2 – I’m with you. I would consider 15% for more or less average service. Negligence (beyond their control – if the place is slammed I will consider that) and a sneering attitude will generally drop a waiter under 15%. I guess you can call me cheap, but if you don’t want to be there working for your money, it’s not really fair to the others who are taking their job – and their clients – seriously.
#4 – My general baseline is $1 per drink – my friend the bartender tells me this is ok. I drink almost exclusively vodka and soda, and it takes very little effort to throw a lemon or lime wedge into the highball. And beer. The only time I really get any frou frou cocktails with more than 2 ingredients it’s usually part of a larger bill, and that usually gets 20%.
Pork Cop says
I only tip less than 20% if I get Attitude.As a server myself I know all of the things that can/will happen in a restaurant. I know how hard it can be to keep a smile on. I am the easiest guest a server could ask for.If you give me attitude (Portland is the hipster ‘tude Capitol of America) you might not get anything at all. I used to tip 20% no matter the service. No more. Get in to a different line of work if you can’t be nice and generous to people. Pisses me off!
Dave J. says
From my perspective, tipping is a two-way street. Yes, I know that many waiters and servers depend on tips to supplement their (often) less-than-minimum-wage job. At the same time, my wife and I both work tough, full-time jobs, and don’t make a ton of money, and have to make difficult choices about where we want to spend our small restaurant budget. So, we tip very well (20-25%) when the service is excellent, but if the service is “average,” we don’t tip very much. I simply don’t get why I should be expected to pay extra for someone who obviously doesn’t care about their job. I mean, really, 15% even if you are unhappy, and 20% if the waiter did a great job? That’s a difference of 5%, which is pretty small.
That being said, I don’t hold it against the waiter when things happen that are beyond their control. I do expect a certain level of competence, and a decent attitude, however. I’m not simply going to reward someone for doing a barely adequate job.
(As a footnote, can I also state how much I hate the recent proliferation of tip jars at purely retail establishments? I saw one at a 7-11 recently, for crying out loud.)
Casey says
it will be interesting to see what people say here, as portland can be an awful town for tipping & other small yet essential points of restaurant etiquette… i’ve found that we’re just not all that savvy yet as a group. with notable exceptions, of course.
Bigfoot says
Maybe we aren’t as savvy or maybe we are! Oregon is one of the few states that does not allow servers to be paid less than minimum wage with the expectation that tips will make up the difference. Minimum wage still stinks, but lots of folks work those kind of jobs and get no tips.
urban_nymph says
First of all I have to wonder where people are eating where they experience such atrocious service??? Second why do the patrons get to control the server’s livelihood? I find it this attitude to be unsettling and oppressive. I also find that tipping coffe/deli people is rediculous in terms of percentage another perfect display of bourgeois ignorance.
Yes you are paying for service. And thats exactly what you get. Service with a smile, service with an attitude. Who really cares? Its not entertainment nor are these people your personal gimps. You are there to eat and there is a whole restaurant in business just to serve your needs. Ask for a new waiter, move tables, leave if you don’t like it.
Or – perhaps if you can change your attitude, particularly when you ‘perceive’ that a server is treating you in a way which doesn’t work for you. There is grace in teaching people how to treat you and doing so you might acutually be of service yourself, even if simply to yourself by creating the type of experience you want. Would that be so bad? Being a part of humanity instead of being above it? (however you might realize you are the one with the attitude)
It would be nice to see fellow patrons offering a little more genuine gratitude to people in service – by saying thank you (with just a touch of human presence), by using articulate and well crafted manners — whoa crazy i know!!! — and by appreciating what a luxury it is to go out for a meal, in a positive and celebratory fashion. … by being GOOD guests…
For me – if I don’t like the ‘feel’ of the staff I don’t go back. I call it the attack of the droney waiters. I’m not interested in spending my time, money and energy in a place full of depressives. It saddens me and makes me loose my appetite. It may be their way of life, its not mine. I still tip 20%.
I make huge efforts to be nice to people in service, whether its the gas station attendant (who I often tip), the manicurist, the coffee person, the waiter… I always have good experiences even if my server seems in a funk or even unfunny and sarcastic. I notice things turn around when I am behaving in the way I choose to engage with the world. I truly appreciate the fact that I can leave my abode, walk into an establishment and be served by a small army of beautiful human beings ready and able to tend to my very basic human needs. It’s a glorious thing.
sorry for the diatribe. it just irks me that people want to blame other people for such things and then feel the power to play with their financial well being. i find this behavior to be really dark. not something i want in my life.
Sir Loins says
I’d like to add 2 things: To Pork Cop, Amen, and to Urban Nymph, I agree that customers could do a lot to make their nights out better by being good, appreciative guests.
As a non-native who has enjoyed living in PDX for many years, and as a person who worked for five years in upscale retail – not 4 star food service but it was still serving fussy people with high expectations – I think the complaints about server attitude and awful guests stem from a kind of aloof quality folks in Portland seem to have.
As a southerner, raised to be courteous, polite, and social, I used to wonder how servers, especially those in moderate-to-upscale restaurants, got away with bad attitudes and lackadaisical, less-than-personable manners.
Now, I just think that this behaviour is not necessarily delivered with bad intent on their part; it’s just how folks here are.
I’m not excusing it, I agree that if you don’t enjoy serving people then don’t do it for a living, but every time customer and server complaints come up, I’m reminded of that article a newby PDX transplant wrote for the Oregonian a few weeks ago, about how hard it is to meet and get to know people here. Somehow, it all seems connected.
haddock says
Tipping stinks. As a restaurant owner I’d like to embrace the European/Chez Panisse model of building that into the cost of the meal rather than have the customer subsidize the cost of employment. However, my doing so will only make my restaurant look expensive and will keep customers away. Working for a tip distracts mightily from the real issue which is providing service. You can only do this genuinely when you genuinely care about the well-being of people. Being focused on the outcome, the tip, distracts from that frame of mind.
Also to Bigfoot, CA is one of the states that doesn’t allow for tip credit either. This stinks too. Not because I am a greedy restaurant owner who doesn’t want to pay his staff but because having to pay waiters the minimum wage guarantees a lower wage for the cooks and dishwasher. Because higher menu prices are simply not an option. Customers, particularly those who howl the loudest about fair treatment of workers, are not willing to pay the price needed to make sure everyone in the restaurant transaction makes areasonable wage. If I have only a certain amount to make payroll and I have to pay waiters a minimum wage then… well you get the idea.
Bigfoot says
Sorry urban nymph, but we will have to disagree on this one. Guests come to my home and get fed with no expectation of payment or even reciprocity. Customers, go into a business and pay to be treated well. I’m sure there are patrons who are rude. There may even be occasions when the owner should ask a customer to leave and no longer patronize the business if they are truly that rude and insensitive to the staff. However as a general rule, remember rule number one from the Nordstom’s handbook, “the customer is always right.”
urban_nymph says
Thanks for your reply. I am happy to disagree with you.
I for one am not about to drink the “Nordstrom’s” kool aide.
The customer is NOT always right! I think we all can attest to that. … from both sides.
I would also argue that guests who come into your home absolutely have expectations and perhaps you don’t even know why they come. Whatever. Beyond that – it is customary to return the gesture in some form or another, whether by offering a gift or contribution to the meal (bottle of wine, plant, flowers), returning the invitation, or some other form of gratitude or offering. Even if it is simply a heartfelt thank you and the sweet recognition of these intimate memory making events which shape our lives. This is no small feat. Sharing meals with people is highly intimate. There is always an exchange going on.
I would also argue that people don’t go into businesses to be treated well. Most people go into them because they want something.
I go to particular places where I feel comfortable, I trust what I will be receiving, I feel there is shared value, I feel good about giving an establishment my money…. However, it is arrogant to assume that I am paying to be treated a certain way. Its just not the way the world works.
You can’t buy kindness. Nor can you expect others kindness to make up for the fact that you don’t have any of your own.
Pork Cop says
I work with waiters now who treat guests like garbage because: 1) They’re so over being a server that they just don’t care anymore.2)They generally despise humanity 3)They know they will still make a good living no matter how they treat people. They EXPECT a good tip. A good waiter is in it because first and foremost they enjoy the business and people in particular.If you truly enjoy people the money should follow.Everyone has bad days (this past 2 weeks has been a terrible one for me, don’t EVER quit Paxil cold turkey!!!!)I’ve made more mistakes this couple weeks than probably in the last 10 years. I still do it all with a smile.
Pork Cop says
U.N., A restaurant is ALL showbiz and entertainment. You got your “actors” (waitstaff) your “Technicians” (Cookies)on and on…. Part of a servers job is to act like they like you.
urban_nymph says
gross
Pork Cop says
Yeah, Being an adult isn’t always easy.
Food Dude says
One night several years ago, we decided to go to Roots in Camus. It was a Thursday night. The restaurant was pretty slow, maybe 10 covers. The ambience was great, the food was just fine, but the server was much more interested in sitting in the bar with his girlfriend than he was in making sure his customers were happy. Waits between courses were glacial. After the entrees, I literally had to ask the busser (who was excellent), to get our waiter so we could order dessert. Keep in mind, we could see the server the entire time, smooching across the bar with his girlfriend. When it came time for the bill, we did everything short of sending up flares. I think I tipped a dollar on a meal that had to have been over $100.00, and have never gone back.
I consider myself a good customer. I am always friendly, say thank you to everything, understand that a waiter gets in the weeds now and then, and understand that if the kitchen is slow, it’s not the servers fault. Yet under the logic of a few people here, after this experience, I should have tipped the normal amount. I think not.
As Pork Cop says, there are servers who are burned out. They hate their jobs, they hate their lives, they hate their customers, and those customers suffer for it. That’s why I quit bartending so many years ago – I realized I couldn’t stand being around people while they were drinking (still rubs me the wrong way).
urban_nymph says
you know what they say… love is blind.
I was in paris in the spring time. It seemed like every time I turned my head a couple was smooching. It was really beautiful to see so many people captivated in love. Maybe he was offering you something beyond the mere dining experience.
you can always ask for a different server – that usually does the trick.
elwoodwiles says
This is one of the few review sites where I see any mention of service at all. When reading reviews in the A&E, The Trib, or even WW, service is hardly mentioned. I understand how important the food is, but I think if published reviews gave a few lines to the quality of service, service itself would improve.
Sir Loins says
“Maybe he was offering you something beyond the mere dining experience.”
Urban Nymph, are you suggesting that if FD had tipped better, the server and his bartender/girlfriend might’ve invited FD to a four way for dessert?
Jokes aside, I’d bet that for most diners, watching the folks who make and serve their food getting busy ain’t exactly appetizing.
urban_nymph says
hehe
thats hot. depends on who and how they are getting busy i reckon.
i’d watch. but yeah. i’m not most diners. thats probably fairly obvious at this point.
thanks for the fun dialog.
ciao
Emily says
Now I’m wondering if the waitstaff at my customary haunts secretly hates me. Probably. We still tip at least 15%. Usually more–we just tend to not go back to places with crappy service.
Pork Cop says
At the restaurant I currently work we have an absolutely gorgeous bartender. No straight man can keep their eyes off her. She is also very good at her job. This one obviously well off yuppie guy comes in every night and asks her out.He buys top of the line wines and knows his food.They discuss food and wines. He brags about Paris and Brussels restaurants. A really cosmopolitan guy.He always tips her 10%. Whats he thinkin’? Are some people sooo clueless that they just don’t know or….? Needless to say he ain’t gettin’ any.
Dave J. says
A really cosmopolitan guy.He always tips her 10%. Whats he thinkin’? Are some people sooo clueless that they just don’t know or…?
Maybe he figures that if he asked her out and accompanied that with a generous tip, it might veer uncomfortably close to payment for, um, well, you know. A female friend of mine, who is unquestionably gorgeous, and a waiter, gets really offended when guys hit on her by tipping really generously–says it feels “icky” and kind of creeps her out, as if they expect her to go out with them because they drop some cash.
(That being said, a 10% tip is also quite bad.)
Pork Cop says
I’d leave 20%. Ain’t nothing wrong with that. Either way you look at it.
Pork Cop says
Btw, bartenders/servers at even divey bars often make much more than a fine dining waiter ever could.My friend worked at an English style pub in Portland and it was not unusual for him to walk with 300-400 smackeronies a night. 200 and he was pretty unhappy.
cuisinebonnefemme says
I was lamenting a particularly brutal dining experience I had and my friend said, “was it hipster service?” I had never heard this term before, and although it did not apply in this particular scenario, I felt I knew exactly what he meant and it made me chuckle. Hipster Service. Have others experienced this?
In addition, damn. I’d say most people go to restaurants to eat and, just as equally, to be taken care of. Good service is part of the expectation, as well it should be. People eat out for all kinds of reasons, to watch other people (my particular favorite pastime), to feel special for an hour or so, to take the edge off a bad day, to have something special to remember on a special occasion, to feel less lonely, etc, etc, etc. As a server, I felt it was my job to make them feel welcome, at ease, happy and, shocking as it sounds, serve them, even if they were being babies.
I’m certainly not expecting a server to bow to my every whim, be at my table with a snap of the fingers, and smile through forced teeth. I too have worked in the food service industry long enough to have extreme empathy for those in the front and back, and I too was raised by proper southerners who drilled in please, thank you, excuse me, no chewing gum in public even and gentleness and calm when asking for things. However, bad attitude, uncaring, and generally lackadaisical service just because the server isn’t into it or whatever. No sympathy for that one.
Me: 25% tipper, 20% if everything is so-so, 12-15% if the experience is bad and I won’t come back.
-s says
Second why do the patrons get to control the server’s livelihood? I find it this attitude to be unsettling and oppressive.
Thank you for this statement, as it has allowed me a good belly laugh this morning. In a market economy every person has some power to control the income of other people just by how they choose to spend their money. Obviously the effect is usually very small (if you stop going to the restaurant you can potentially affect the owner’s ability to pay their staff, but everyone else may have different ideas).
What is unsettling and oppressive is forcing the consumer to tip more than the service was worth. You are in effect levying a tax on that consumer and affecting their livelihood as they won’t have those dollars to spend as they please on other things.
Woohoo!!!!
Chinaski says
Only 15%? The answer is, yes they hate you.
Mike Landfair says
The best thing to do is divide the bill by 6 and pay that amount more or less. That will yield a 16.6% tip.
mczlaw says
I want to know where Pork Cop and Dave J.’s friend work. ;-)’Fess.
20% + round up is my standard. Will reduce only slightly if service bad (but, as I’ve said, I hardly ever get bad service), then not return.
“Hipster service” grokked: Palio for coffee this morning (near where I was dropping la nina. Got to chill my heels for a few minutes while the proto-barista finished her conversation with her friend. It was actually kind of funny in a pathetic, if-I-owned-the-place-you-would-be-so-fired kind of way.
FD: “Camus”=existentialist author; “Camas”=small town in SW Washington. So glad to see you back and writing. Keep up the good work, as always.
–mcz
Pork Cop says
15% is not a reason to be too terribly upset. To me it would signal that I had done my job but not a whole lot more.If I often received 15% I would probably re-evaluate my service. In that way 15 is kinda the new 10. 18 is probably average. THIS IS NOT A LAW.Mcz – two words…..Sassy’s!!!!!
nate says
To me, good service mostly consists of getting my order right, bringing it out before it’s gotten cold (or warm), keeping some amount of water in my glass, and being available if I have any additional needs (swinging by my table if you notice the drinks are empty is a good start). A brief check-in after we’ve tried our food to make sure it’s not inedible for some reason is also appreciated.
I don’t need or expect a particularly cheerful disposition, encyclopedic knowledge of the history of every ingredient in every dish (though as a home chef and trivia buff, it sure is nice), or refilling my water before it ever gets half-empty. I realize you aren’t my personal manservant or slave and don’t expect you to behave as such.
For this I will tip around 20%. Depending on how the server adds or detracts from the meal, I can push this up as high as 30% or drop it down to around 12-15%.
This may be a bit of a thread-jack, but how do folks here deal with controlling the pace of their meal? I actually like to eat rather slowly and have long conversational breaks between my courses. When I hear folks complain about a 20 minute wait between a first and second course, I have trouble understanding that they mean that’s too long. At the same time, I realize that restaurants have some financial interest in getting me my food and out of my table so they can seat another group. To what degree is it acceptable to ask a server to slow down the pace of a meal, and (never having worked in a professional kitchen) to what degree is this something that can be accommodated by the kitchen? This is probably the number one thing that I feel could improve my dining experience, but not knowing the protocol makes it a bit awkward (I don’t want to be that customer). [Note: I and my parties tend to drink more than enough cocktails and wine during our extended stays to still make this a very profitable venture for the establishment.]
server says
The tax on my tips is taken out of my hourly wage, so I end up making $4-5 an hour in wages. Factoring tips back in, I make about $14 an hour.
The reward/punishment model of tipping is flawed. By going out to dinner, patrons are de facto agreeing to a system in which my wages are subsidized by their tips. If this bothers you, don’t go out to dinner. If you do go out to dinner, be prepared to compensate me appropriately for my time–20% is standard. If you feel compelled to penalize me for my “bad” service, talk to my manager, fill out a comment card, or call the company. Bear in mind that if you undertip me you are also undertipping the cook, busser, bartender, and anyone else in the building who depends on tips to pay the bills.
Also. Tip the kids at Starbucks, if you must go to Starbucks. A dollar a drink is standard. When I worked at the ‘bucks, my wages paid the bills, and my $70 weekly in tips was “fun money.” If you’re dropping $4 a day on a coffee drink, you can afford it.
To Nate: I think it’s completely appropriate to tell your server that you aren’t in a hurry. I appreciate customers who are specific about their needs.
And finally, a little civility DOES go a long way. I’ve worked many a shift without once hearing the words “please” or “thank you”; watch the way most customers interact with their servers, and you’ll understand why many servers seem bitter or jaded. I have no problem accomodating special requests as long as they are delivered in a civil tone; I think most servers feel the same way.
Angelhair says
Confession of a service junkie:
Tonight’s dinner at D.F. featured the most amazing service. Five people waited on two of us. My God, it was fantastic! FWIW, I am by no means a regular there.
I mean, I love their food, but they are not necessarily my favorite of the mid-scale Mexican places in town.
What a difference service makes. Would I chose a place like D.F., where tonight I was enveloped in a cocoon of tequilla and ceviche; or would I rather spend the same amount of money in a place like Autentica where I can’t even get silverware? Or Taqueria 9 or Nuestra, where I can’t get a table? And when I do get one, I can’t get an order in for 20 minutes.
Even on a packed Friday night, every thing was attended to. Bussers offered more cocktails, runners proffered special salsas. There was no, “it’s not my job” kind of attitude; like when you ask for water and the person who you ask for it from can’t be bothered to get it for you because it isn’t their ‘job’ they instead tell the ‘water person’ to get you water.
Forget about tipping 20%. Owners out there should know that service makes all the difference in me wanting to come back…and often.
What difference does $10 more make to a server, anyway? When you get bad service, blame management. They are the ones who hired the slackers in the first place! There is this individualist mentality when it comes to service that robs diners of a great experience. I, for one, am sick of it.
fathom says
Angelhair, I share your love of good service, which really is a group effort if done properly and well. As a service professional, I can tell you that the first goal of most sincere servers is to make sure that you will look forward to a return trip. I can also tell you that $10 makes a huge difference when you are $200 away from rent and your paycheck is going to be a whopping $18. Largely rhetorical at this point, but the difference in percentage points is tremendous when you’re paying your bills based on that percentage.
sidemeat says
Oh, I should think this out first but I feel a good rant coming on so here goes. To my fellow servers,
c’mon, the money is pretty good, you don’t have to look further than the kitchen or the dish pit to see that. Look at what ‘real jobs’ pay. We go to work with nothing more than a couple of pens and a corkscrew,a halfway clean shirt and the ability to deal with the public for a few hours. This last bit is our trade, many folks can’t/won’t do it. Often it is unpleasant,but it’s over in a little while and people give you money to guide them through their meal. I don’t sweat each individual tip, some people give 10% when you’re great and some 30% when you’re sure they’re going to complain to management.Go figure.
To diners, Please let me know in advance! If you’re in a rush, I’ll do what I can, but the laws of time/space come in to play at 7:30 on Saturday night, if you are in no rush, bless you, I’ll make sure that your glasses are full, and that your dinner is coursed out and that you have the time to enjoy each others company and your meal.Special requests or needs? Tell me up front,don’t wait until I bring your meal to mention that you will die if there’s a hint of peanut in your dish.And please be willing to try something new. Maybe you won’t like it, but maybe you will find your newest, bestest dish ever.It’s just dinner, maybe a drink, you’re not getting a friggin tattoo.
Angelhair says
fathom,
I mispoke. What I meant to convey is what is $10 more tip in the big scheme of things. Nothing really. I am dropping $100+, so $10 more is nothing to me. When I with-hold that extra $10 it means a lot more than you are not making $10 more. It means I ain’t coming back, or I’ll think twice about coming back. Servers, forget about the actual money and try to keep customers.
What is that $100 to the owner/manager? And what is a repeat diner to an owner? And what is good word of mouth to an owner? It’s everything.
Owners, forget about loyalty to your employees. It’s me, the customer, that needs to be your priority. Are there really not enough servers out there that restaurants need to employ slackers? Hire more people and sack the slackers!
Betsy says
I used to be a server (waitron, bartender, front of house management), with occasional times in places like the dishpit, salad prep, etc.
Server, I have a huge problem with this:
See, I think you got that entirely bass-ackwards. If I come out to dinner, you’d better be prepared to earn that compensation – especially if, as you say, the wages of your fellow employees also rest on your shoulders. Isn’t that all the more reason to give excellent service, and to try and earn large tips?
And I have to ask – do you tip out the back of the house equitably as well? Or do you – as is common – slide an extra few bucks to the busboy who made sure your tables got cleared first, or to the bartender who rushed your drink orders through? I freely admit that I always took care of everyone fairly – but I also made sure the ones who helped me rock out front got something extra. Call it incentive, call it bonus pay – whatever. But either way – it was earned, therefore it was given.
server says
Betsy:
The restaurant I work at distributes tips evenly among all of its employees. When I said that undertipping “me” was also undertipping the bartender, busser, etc., I was speaking generally, as that’s the case in most restaurants; in my specific situation, I am simultaneously server, bartender, busser to as many as 12 tables on a given night, and I spit my tips with the other servers and cooks. For a patron to walk into my restaurant and assume that because I don’t spend ten minutes chatting up my tables, I lack “enthusiasm” or “passion” would be infuriating and unfair; if patrons base tips on standards like these, I will be undertipped despite the fact that I run my ass off and yes, water glasses are getting refilled. This is why I’m opposed to a system that encourages patrons to judge the performance of their servers, while lacking any concept of what goes into that performance. If I was waiting entirely on fellow servers, that would be a different story entirely.
Pork Cop says
How can anyone deliver good service to people when they are “simultaneously server,bartender,busser to as many as 12 tables on any given night”? You can’t. It’s a poor management decision.
server says
“It’s a poor management decision”
That’s exactly my point. Poor management, but how’s the customer to know that? Should I be penalized for bad management?
Ellie says
I’m one of the odd few who actually enjoyed being a server. (Call my taste questionable if you will, as I also enjoyed organic chemistry.) Waiting tables put me through six years of college without taking out a loan, and earned the money for a down payment on my first home (mind you, I had a day job at that point as well.) I always thought of it as a “human lab” of sorts. You get to experience the best and the worst of the human race and decide which type of person you want to be.
I tip 20% plus, unless I get the PHT (Portland Hipster ‘Tude.) As a server, I tried not to read into what people left as tips. It’s too random, and I was there to do my best no matter what the tip. It always averaged out to about the same anyway. I personally would rather deal with kind customers who left 15% than demanding pricks who left 25%.
Ellie says
Angelhair –
I wonder if DF pools server tips? I feel as though restaurants who pool tips are more likely to have good, attentive service.
Pork Cop says
I recently started working at a tip pool restaurant.This is my first experience with pooling.It has it’s own inherant problems. We have 4 full time servers.Myself and another waiter consistently out sell the other two by almost DOUBLE> Example last night I sold $1687.The other high seller was in the same neighborhood. The low sold $862.We ALL walked with $225.This happens almost every night. After awhile it starts to breed resentment.Of course the low sellers are happy clams.
Ellie says
PK, I guess I had the opposite experience as a server. The best place (and tip percentages) for me was a pooled tip situation. If I was slammed, the other servers weren’t afraid to pitch in, and vice versa. There was less frustration over who was sat and when. No favoritism by the maitre’d, ’cause it just didn’t matter. Everyone worked hard, whether it was in your section or in someone else’s. For pooling to work, it does require that all of the severs on the floor are strong and have decent work ethics.
Pork Cop says
Agreed! Makes sense.
Marshall Manning says
Pork Cop, is that a relatively normal night for you (and other good servers) or an extreme? If good servers are making $200 per night in tips, I’m going to stop listening to these cries of “Oh, we’re not getting enough (whether wages or tips).”
Djonn says
As a non-industry reader, some questions on tipping logistics:
First: which system dominates for dividing tips, pooling or every server for himself? And what factors tend to drive house policy — i.e. is pooling more or less likely in big-ticket restaurants, chains, larger dining rooms, etc.?
Second: As a diner, what can or should one do to ensure that one’s tip goes to one’s particular server? And are there things one shouldn’t do? (A for-instance: is it a good or bad idea to pay the meal ticket with plastic but tip in cash — and does that answer change if the house is pooling tips?)
Third: More and more places are adopting an automatic 18% gratuity policy for large parties. I don’t mind this, but it does complicate my math — because even before reading this thread, I’d had the sense that especially for very good service, it’s appropriate for diners to tip on top of the automatic figure. What are good guidelines for this situation, taking into account both hosted (one check) and no-host (separate check) groups?
Pork Cop says
I am not currently working in PDX . I personally have never made that kind of money consistently in Portland(more like 150-200 on a good night).Generally the higher the prices on the menu the more tips one should receive(of course people in seats helps). Then take into account that servers often have to tip out various other coworkers.In some places they tip out upwards of 30-40 percent. In Portland, steakhouse waiters make that kinda cash nightly. Possibly a few other places as well.But like I said before bartenders and busy bar employess make the real money.They also work longer and must deal with drunken lout hooligans etc….You’d be surprised by what the girls at, say, Holmans pull in.Thing is,the server at Chili’s(example) works just as hard or harder than say, Carlyle(again) and makes a fraction of the money. That’s life.
Pork Cop says
Marshall, I walked with $320 tonight. I make $200 at least every night I work.
Food Dude says
Bartenders in a busy place make good money. In the early 80’s I’d pull in $150-$250 a weekend night – that was a good amount in those days. Of course you have to tip out the barback, there’s no benefits at all, and sometimes you’d get stuck with a sunday shift where you’d be lucky to make $30.
We used to collect our change in those huge glass water cooler bottles. When they got heavy, we’d bring them into the bank on handtrucks. They hated us!
Pork Cop says
My best friend was a barkeep in Portland at a busy pub. He always saved his change everynight in big glass jars. Jars everywhere in his apartment. One day his brother in Zimbabwe asked him to come and visit. Off we went to the bank. It took us 3 trips back and forth to the car.The bank clerk was hatin’ us.$3,000 later….. Finally, he paid for his ticket and had enough money left over for expenses. Trip paid in full from a half a years change.
Pork Cop says
I realise that some people wil be shocked that some restaurant workers make this kind of money. Waiting tables is an extremely,horribly stressful job.It’s hard work.It really is.
fathom says
Djonn, nearly all of the McMenamin’s are pooled houses (I think maybe all, but I’m no authority). There are a couple of other higher end places in town that I have heard have a pooled situation. If you are tipping in a pooled house, the tip should be divided accordingly, if not, the tip you leave goes to your server who will more than likely tip out some other folks at the end of the night.
When it comes to the 18% for parties rule, I used to calculate the amount and write it in on the bottom of the tab before the check was presented because on one hand, I don’t think it’s appropriate–policy or not–for a server to assume a tip, much less add one automatically. On the other hand, sometimes guests chose to leave more and had the option available when signing the credit card receipt or leaving cash. That is my personal policy, I haven’t met many other people willing to gamble on that 18%. I never came up short.
Pork Cop, sounds like you have found a good situation, but others should realise that you represent something of a minority–there have been times that I have averaged out to about $80 a shift after tip out. On a four shift schedule, in a town with a slightly lower cost of living, I was pretty happy with that. More is never a bad thing, but being able to eat and pay rent are worth being grateful for.
Daaaaave says
“By going out to dinner, patrons are de facto agreeing to a system in which my wages are subsidized by their tips. If this bothers you, don’t go out to dinner. If you do go out to dinner, be prepared to compensate me appropriately for my time–20% is standard.”
ah….the stench of entitlement.
Angelhair says
Pork Cop,
“It’s hard work. It really is.” I guess I disagree with you, in a very big way. I waited tabled for years (and bartended, was a hostess, checked coats, everything). Waiting tables was nothing compared to the stress or hours of the ‘real’ job that I left my high-paying waitressing job for. Nothing remotely close.
On another note: when I waited tables, I was very, very good at it. When I tip, it’s hard for me to reward awful service. I am going to say it out loud now, it’s not that difficult to wait tables well. Just watch your tables. It’s a good feeling to know that you can play a big part in someone else’s happiness.
formerly apcow says
I wish there was a server out there that would trade me jobs for a week. I’m sure I’d have a much better appreciation for the hard work they do, and I’m absolutely positive that we’d both be praying to get back to our normal jobs by about day two.
Having said that, I must admit that I was a 15 percenter until I started dating a server. And now that I’m married to one, I’m a 20 to 25 percenter. After hearing multiple stories about four-tops consisting of menopausal Acura MDX drivers from Beaverton that come in to split a cobb salad and two ice teas before tipping 75 cents, I figure it’s people like me that balance things out in a server’s day.
Pork Cop says
Angelhair, According to the Center For Disease Control(CDC) being a waiter has always been one of the top ten MOST STRESSFUL occupations.Others are:inner city teacher, miner, air traffic controller,Stockbroker and a couple more.You don’t disagree with me,you disagree with the facts!
Food Dude says
So if I was an air traffic controller who moonlighted as a waiter, while being heavily into the stock market, and I married to an inner city teacher, my relationship could have issues ;)
Pork Cop says
Fathom, I agree that my situation is really good. Again, I am not in Portland right now. Most waiters are happy to make $100 a night. That is sort of the standard that many(myself included,although a fella sure gets used to a “certain lifestyle”) go by.The more the merrier.My advice is to learn the basics at a Corporate (Chili’s,Denny’s, TGI Fridays,)then go to a fine dining spot and never look back.That’s where the real cash is. It’s also much less stressful then being “weeded” for 8 hours straight at Stuart Andersons.The experience of being constantly overwhelmed will make “Fine dining” a walk in the park.Ya gotta have a strong foundation.
Pork Cop says
Yeah, and chances are you’d be a drunken coke freak like many of those smiling, patient waiters.
Angelhair says
PK,
I knew I was strating a fire when I said that. I’m sorry, I don’t mean to enrage. I waited tables in high-end places. The money was very good, and I am sure I didn’t have half the stress of someone working in a faster-paced environment (for, arguably, less money). Maybe, also, I don’t get flustered too easily, so it wasn’t stressful for me, in particular.
Pork Cop says
Coolio, we’re all different. I get stressed! I am a big mouth by nature. Swallowing my dignity really gets my goat.
fathom says
Hey, just for the record, that $80 average was in a chef-owned fine dining place, there were still some nights when you open and walk with $40, and there are some nights when you close and walk with $150 and there are some nights when everyone seems to have other things to do than dine out. I’ve been in fine dining for 8 years (and I have always felt that those folks working on a chain gang deserve a little extra kindness for all of the madness they have to put up with, but it’s also a choice; I wouldn’t do it, I’d go for air traffic or inner city teacher, first).
Pork Cop says
My first serving job was in a Steak house chain restaurant. I was 18 and everyone was expected to pull double shifts 5,6,7 days a week. My manager averaged 80 + The corporate office just abused everyone.The class of the clientele is so low that almost every shift you would want to just walk. Servers would go outside and just kick the dumpster for 5 minutes to get it all out. I’d work from 10 A.M. to 11 P.m. almost everyday. Somebody would flip out a quit and you’d have another shift to cover. After work everyone would go to a Bennigans (chain) and get hammered to relieve their anger(tipping huge amounts to their long sufering bretheren,spending all your tips!). Wake up drunk and do it again!I did this for a year until my whole body ‘Just said no!” I ended up getting fired because my back went out. No insurance, nada. It’s a tough gig.
Emily says
Chinaski–currently I am the mother of three small children and am also chief cook, server, and dishwasher. When I go out, I don’t care if the service is abysmal, servers get at least 15% because I don’t have to cook the meal or clean up after it. Generally, we tip at least 20%. We’re not particularly demanding but I’ve seen customers who are, and servers deserve every penny. At least I don’t give out religious tracts in lieu of tips.
Pork Cop says
forgot about those!
cognos2000 says
PorkCop: I’ve had a lot rougher job than you ever will imagine. Try being on call 24*7 (and working 80 or so hours a week and then being on call) and only getting two weeks a year off. There are nights when you don’t get any sleep and then you are back at work in the morning. For a number of years, I worked every holiday weekend. And there are no tips and no overtime. And you have to wake from a dead sleep and solve whatever the problem is. Sorry, waiting tables would be a cake walk. And I have done fast food service in high school and college.
Pork Cop says
Yeah but my amp goes to 11……..
Pork Cop says
“You see, most blokes will be playing at 10.You’re on 10, all the way up, ALL the way up……where can ya go from there? Nowhere. What I do, is if I need that extra little push….. over the cliff……ELEVEN. One louder!!”
LadyConcierge says
Server-
Do you work at the Blue Monk?
The Mick says
Ellie
DF does pool tips. Having worked in pooled and non-pooled houses over the past 20 years I can safely say that the service in pooled houses is generally far superior to non-pooled ones. Pork Cop has a point about some people pulling their weight more than others (which can create animosity), but in a well managed house this will not be an issue. (and it is a far better scenario than a house of mercenary waiters who are all out for themselves. In these houses teamwork goes out the window. They become an “every man for himself” service which promotes jealousy, arguments and all in all a less stable and less than ideal working environment)
Pooled houses are the only way to go!!!
Food Dude says
A lot of people don’t realize that front-of-the-house people make much more than most in the kitchen. I think both jobs are equally stressful, but in different ways.
Part of the service problem is there are very few ‘professional’ waiters. Most are just people looking for a night job to put them through school. They lack the passion it takes to set themselves above the ordinary. One of the first things I look for when I’m doing a review is whether the staff seems generally happy to be there. It’s just another little note to add to a review that shows the feel of a place.
server says
“ah….the stench of entitlement.”
Entitlement? Give me a break.
I average $50-$80 a night. I would much prefer a decently hourly wage and, say, health benefits, to scrounging for tips from people who think what I’m doing is “not stressful” or that I make too much money as it is. Management’s got a good thing going, though– server wages are capped at minimum, and the tipping public is expected to make up the difference. Maybe we should call it a tax instead of a tip.
Montmike says
I have to second the comment about Portland’s service attitude and quality service. It generally sucks (and I emphasize generally) compared to the vast majority of other places I’ve lived. Most people who visit me from out of town also comment on it at some point, without prompting.
I just don’t go to places where I’ve recieved poor service. Then I don’t have to worry about tipping the right amount.
Pork Cop says
I agree with the Dude. Most waiters don’t know anything about the food that they’re serving. They have no interest except in the cash-ola at the end.Just the other night a waiter I work with asked me what pancetta was and it’s been on the menu for a month!.I’ve cooked and being a cook is FAR to much work/stress for FAR too little money. I have nothing but respect for anyone who cooks professionally.
-s says
I don’t mean to come off like an a-hole, but server, if you think your life is so bad, get a different job. People do it all the time and noone on this board will think less of you.
Speaking of service, Salem Monthly (an indie rag down here) did its “Best Of…” issue and the place that got voted best restaurant is a place where you order at the counter and they give you a number. I’m not sure if that’s a commentary on people in Salem or on servers or both.
Daaaaave says
Dear server,
You can call it whatever you like, but I’ll wager you won’t get 20% either way with that attitude.
Dave J. says
Some of these comparisons of past jobs are beginning to remind me of Monty Python’s “Four Yorkshiremen” sketch.
“Ohhhh we used to DREAM of livin’ in a corridor! Woulda’ been a palace to us. We used to live in an old water tank on a rubbish tip. We got woken up every morning by having a load of rotting fish dumped all over us! House!? Hmph.”
server says
My percentages are just fine, thanks for the concern. Gracefully handling ill-mannered customers is one way I manage to earn my 20%.
-s says
So what’s the problem then? I’m confused.
If we can still do comparison stuff, the most horrible thing I ever had to do for a job was hand harvest individual heads of wheat eight hours a day for two weeks during a Louisiana heat wave in which the high was never lower than 100F (and of course it was always humid.) Plus my boss could be a big a** sometimes.
Pork Cop says
Thats nuthin’ when I was 14 I had to mow my lawn once a WEEK for FREE! MY Dad was a mean ol’ bastid.
cuisinebonnefemme says
Who here tips on takeout orders?
I’m woeful to keep this thread going, however, I am wondering this, just having had some amazing takeout from Lagniappe on Alberta (smoked brisket is quite good today by the way.)
Finally worst food job: hands down (although I’m ashamed to even admit that I worked there) Jack in the Box. I lasted one shift. Hard, dirty, greasy, demeaning, mean customers, bad cleanliness standards (them not me), minimum wage with no tips. God, it was horrible, just horrible. My only fast food experience. I’d rather pluck chickens all day that go through that again.
Second to worst was Grand Central Bakery (the original one in Seattle). Worst manager I’ve ever encountered. Passive agressive (I’ll take being yelled at any day over guessing games), liked public “shamings” in front of staff and customers, horrible organization skills, spacey, and couldn’t get orders right, but was very quick to blame others.
Bee-otch to the highest degree. The only job I ever walked out on in the middle of a shift.
Daaaaave says
Worst food job: at 15, I worked the whopper station at the Burger King in Wilsonville where I-5 and I-205 come together on Thanksgiving weekend. Stats were something like 100 burgers/hour or something equally ridiculous.
Dave J. says
Who here tips on takeout orders?
Always a puzzle for me as well. The thing is, I usually only do takeout from small neighborhood joints that I like, so I don’t mind dropping a few bucks in the tip jar. But I never know exactly what the proper protocol is–I mean, their workload is much less, so obviously the full 15-20% is too much, but what’s right? Do restaurants expect to be tipped on takeout??
Has anyone else here ever had the awkward experience where you zeroed out the “tip” line on the credit card bill because you were going to drop a few dollar bills in the tip jar, but then right as you did it the server turned his/her back on you, thus not seeing it, and thus you were embarassed by them thinking you tipped nothing? I swear, that’s happened to me like 3 or 4 times. Always an uncomfortable moment–do I draw attention to my tip? That’s lame. Do I tip more? That’s stupid. Argh
.
grapedog says
Worst food job: Working for a “hospitality company” at the Oregon State Fair in Salem in the late 1970s, one of my first food jobs. I was a grill cook, making burgers and deep fried onion rings in one of the food booths at the fair. Burger patties were kept in the summer breeze to defrost. We strained the fryers every night and reused oil until it was disgusting. I got so many burns on my hands from the oil, maybe that’s why my hands are impervious to heat now. I had one customer throw a “Fair Burger” at me after eating a bite. It was a burger with a pile of sauteed, greasy onions on it. Positive note: we were able to experiment with deep fried things like Snickers bars using the onion ring batter.
Food Dude says
grapedog: In the early 70’s I was working at a Kentucky Fried Chicken. We’d frequently get blocks of chicken in that were somewhat green in color. I couldn’t deal and quit after 3 days.
Dave J: YES! I hate it when that happens. You stand there and go, well crap, now she thinks I don’t tip. Then the next time you feel like an idiot making sure they see you put the tip in the jar.
As far as takeout food goes, we’ve talked about that before here. I usually tip 10% just for their trouble.
Pork Cop says
Dave J, That was a hilarious Seinfeld Episode!! Dude, I also worked at KFC for 2-3 days. My job was to cut off the tumors from the chicken.I have never,ever eaten at KFC again! At a college cafeteria I worked at we got boxes of frozen chickens that said: GRADE D.BUT SAFE FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION. Hmmmm Hmmmm Good!
Sir Loins says
Stories about cutting tumors off of meat I’d expect from someone who worked in a processing plant; not a restaurant. That’s nasty, Pork Cop.
Two pals who toiled for several summers in Alaskan fish canneries years ago have told me loads of disgusting tumor stories. I’ll just say this: Don’t eat any fish that comes from a can.
Bigfoot says
I’m also a KFC alum and I actually lasted an entire summer. The amount of fat and sugar that went into the salads was really disgusting. Anybody who skips the chicken and has “just a salad for my diet,” is fooling themselves. When chicken fell on the floor, we just held it under the hot oil for a count of 3. It probably did kill anything bad, but man that is gross!
Pork Cop says
Don’t even get me started on my fishmonger stories. 2 years of fileting fish and you get to see some pretty “interesting” stuff.Hint: I’d avoid Swordfish If I were you…..
Pam says
I think it’s Anthony Bourdain who tells stories about the horrible things he’s pulled out of swordfish. I haven’t eaten swordfish since reading it. It’s (almost) enough to turn one into a vegetarian!
Dave J. says
You want to hear some interesting “guess what I pulled out of a _____” stories, hang around with coffee roasters. I knew some guys who owned a roaster up in Minneapolis/St. Paul, and they’d get bags of beans shipped directly from their suppliers in S. American and Central America and Africa. At the time (this was about 10 years ago, I don’t know if things are still run this way), the suppliers would be paid based on the weight of the bags, not the actual quantities of beans. So, if something fell it at the source, they just left it in there, as it increased the weight. So, they’d pull bricks, branches, and assorted weird things out of there. Once they cracked open a bag of some top quality Kenyan beans, and found three fingers–they destroyed the entire cargo, and found a new supplier! To this day, I have a hard time drinking Kenya AA, even though I love it…
Pork Cop says
That is some gourmet black coffee……..
pollo elastico says
Kenya AA is people!
Chambolle says
So close….so close…100 posts…..must make it…..help us, Pork Cop!!!
Mike Landfair says
There has to be something wrong with everything we eat. In my yard spiders crawl across my raspberries and lord knows what gets on my tomatos when I’m not around!
urban_nymph says
does the 100th post count if you are completely off topic????
; )
-s says
If this helps the count, I thought FoodDude was in his early-mid 30’s. I’m currently trying to reconcile that thought with his work at KFC in the early 70s. I await his post that says “Though it is often difficult for a fetus to find work, KFC took a flyer on me.”
Sir Loins says
Okay, here’s another off-topic, but true tale of The Gross Things That Live In Meat. But this one’s got a repulsive twist that would gag Anthony Bourdain.
My father in law used to hunt deer. Did all his own butchering and processing, and yeah, he ate what he killed or gave the meat to folks who also ate it. And if the buck had a big-ass antler rack, he’d mount the head on the wall.
One time, he was heading back to his truck with his kill when he came across a couple of hunters he didn’t know, camping in a clearing off the road. They had a fire going, and were cutting up a deer they’d shot, prepping some of the meat for that night’s dinner.
They were all chatting about their good luck in the tree stands that day, when one of the guys removed the deer’s liver, laid it on a plate, and began to pull out long, white, parasitic worms from the liver.
Then, the unthinkable happened: The liver-hunter put the worms into the pan, and started cooking them up.
My father in law, surely alarmed on the inside but playing it cool, asked the other two hunters, “Do y’all know what those are?”
The liver-hunter said, “Liverettes. Want some?”
Trying not to laugh or puke, he politely declined, said goodbye, and headed on to his truck.
Pork Cop says
Hey what you guys doin’ ?………….
sidemeat says
cue camera four…soundtrack starts..NOW! mister engineer,faders up. The 101st post; heretofore a copywrited feature of this blog. Mczlaw back off! All rights reserved, all 101st posts are the exclusive property of and may not be viewed without a note from your mother.It’s MINE! ALL MINE! I’ve got a Joe Dixon saLT GRINDER AND i’M NOT afraid to use it. We refuse the right to keep silent I am not afraid of your silence horses,horses horses
Food Dude says
-s: Did I say 70’s? I’m sure I meant 80’s.
sir loins: reminds me of bottle flies we used to remove from cows when I spent my summers on a ranch in Texas. I won’t go into details.
Let’s face it, we are eating worms and bugs all the time. Last week I was washing blueberries and was interrupted by a phone call so they were left to soak. Quite a few tiny translucent worms were floating on top by the time I got back. The government actually posts a list of allowable body parts in cookies and things like that. Trust me, you’d never eat a Fig Newton again.
Pork Cop: it figures you would do the 100th post. I was hoping for something unparalleled in its brilliance. As usual, you didn’t let me down.
Not only do we have our 100 comment post; but we’ll also do 100,000 page views this month. Woot!
Pork Cop says
I’ve always felt that when God gives you a gift it’s your obligation to use that gift for the benefit of mankind.I feel as if I have been chosen, handpicked,if you will, by the BIG GUY.At the end of the day I was just playing a small, small part!
Carolyn Manning says
I must admit, this whole string has been an amazingly entertaining thread! I love the fight-mode of “I can top that” as opposed to the fight-mode of “You’re a blithering idiot and you don’t know what you’re talking about.” Much more fun reading!
Congratulations on your MONSTEROUS month, Dude.
WE LOVE THIS SITE!!!
Chambolle says
I’d like to congratulate Pork Cop on NAILING to the 100th post. But I do think that Sir Loins should get credit for the assist. The John Stockton of portklandfoodanddrink, if you will.
Outstanding work! By the way, us waiters are ungrateful screws, even the pros.
Pork Cop says
There’s enough glory to go around on this one.In the future….. I’m pretty sure I could reach 100 posts all by my lonesome.
-s says
I love the fight-mode of “I can top that” as opposed to the fight-mode of “You’re a blithering idiot and you don’t know what you’re talking about.”
WELL I LOVE IT MORE!
grapedog says
Guys, I hate to add one more comment to this topic of tipping, but I just can’t resist! I just returned from a bit of vacation in Austria and Germany and I love their tipping policy! When the check is requested by the table, the waiter comes by and totals who ate which dishes, adding the total for each person or couple. Then, the bill is paid in cash, typically, with the total rounded up to the nearest euro as a tip. No 15% or 20%. It’s been a few years since I’ve been to this area of the world, but given the long debate about the ridiculous tipping expected in the US, I thought it would be an interesting addition to the debate, especially as I noted the tip bucket in the bus that drove me from the airport to my car at Fly n’ Park.
bakergirl says
I don’t see a problem with tipping 15% for decent service, particularly in nicer restaurants where I’m paying close to $40 per person for the meal alone. If I’m buying a bottle of wine I’m getting it at a huge markup and I’m tipping on that markup in my 15%. I think this all balances it out. I won’t be guilted into a higher tip because that defeats the real intent of the higher tip–recognition of outstanding effort by someone in a job that lots of people in it don’t take seriously.