The city of Portland plans to enforce sidewalk cafe regulations
DOC Restaurant Portland
A Sidewalk Café Permit allows the holder of the permit to place tables and chairs within the sidewalk area adjacent to a restaurant for use by patrons to whom the business has provided food or beverage. This is an act that is otherwise prohibited in the City of Portland. Sidewalk Café Permits are authorized by Portland City Code, Title 17, Chapter 25; Sidewalk Cafés. The permit requires that the Sidewalk Café operator ensures that their Sidewalk Café meets site and other regulations as set by the City of Portland.
The Sidewalk Café Permit is issued to an individual, the Permittee, for use by the single business
and location named in the application. The Permittee is often the owner of the business. The
permit is personal to them and cannot be transferred in any manner, nor can the permit be used for
another business or location.
Even restaurants which have offered outdoor dining for years are required to pay the new fees. Here are the charges restaurant owners can expect to pay:
The intake fee is $250.
Insurance review fee $23.70
Annual permit fee $100 plus $12.00 per linear foot of cafe space.
The renewal permit fee for subsequent years will be $100 plus $5.00 per linear foot of cafe space.
The area must be zoned as commercial or employment, the sidewalk measured from the property line to the curb must be 8 feet wide, and a clear pedestrian zone must be maintained.
There is a 11(!) page information and application packet available on the city of Portland website.
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Comments
Samanthasays
Re: Rose’s Deli in Tanasborne
My understanding was that the rent the mall was charging was astronomical. I had a friend who was working as a server there, and this is what they shared. I don’t find this all that surprising though. Happened to a coffee shop I liked to visit that had another location on the South Waterfront. That location was paying half as much rent as the Tanasborne location.
Morgan Ennissays
Hi, I am the owner of Immortal Pie and Larder and I just want to make one small correction to Food Dude’s lovely shout out. The address will actually be 8029 SE Stark St, in the Montavilla neighborhood, between Ya Hala and The Observatory. Can’t wait to move in!
Vicki Abbottsays
I love pastrami. I love chopped liver, too. But I can’t imagine them together in a sandwich. They’re delicacies that need to be appreciated on their own.
johnnysays
I gotta say Liza Schroeder should be writting a book on how to make PR firm work for you.Not to say the food her food is bad but Mothers bistro is the most average restaurant I’ve ever eaten at and Mama Mias is slightly below average but how this Chef can spin these places is truly an art form. And yes this a compliment
I wondered about the Tanasbourne Rose’s when its address was left off of a recent ad insert in the Big O. That always seemed to me like an odd location for them, given that the surrounding mall seemed to be trying really hard to project a seriously upscale image (and Rose’s location within the complex wasn’t ideal in terms of signage or ability to attract drive-by traffic).
I wish them well and hope that they find a more affordable location here on the west side. (I’m not sure yet, but I think someone’s actually doing some remodeling work on the old Rose’s building — more recently Hooters — over at Beaverton Town Square….)
mattsays
Sorry, but this is some next-level bs. Their pastrami is terrible, and is handily surpassed by any number of neighborhood delis and diners all over the east coast.
extramsgsays
Each person is entitled to their opinion, but David Sax, the author of the Maxim piece, has a lot of reputable company for his:
Matt Kramer in the Oregonian:
This is pastrami unlike any other, not only in its smoky taste and sheer flavorfulness but also in its equally original texture. Instead of the usual thin strips spewed from a slicer, this pastrami is hand-sliced to a quarter-inch thickness. This comes, I’m sure, from a clearly thought-out recognition that the resonant savor and texture of this remarkable pastrami cannot be fully appreciated in a thinner slice.
Mike Thelin in The Willamette Week:
Piled high as Mount Tabor on ovals of housemade rye, the savory beef brisket—cured, smoked, steamed and encrusted in peppercorned fat—is so tender it could be gummed by the toothless. As personally confirmed on an early-January trip to New York City’s famed Katz’s Deli, Kenny & Zuke’s pastrami on a good day is good enough for even the most persnickety New York transplant.
Matt Davis in The Portland Mercury:
if you’re a first-time visitor, trust me and get something with the quintessential Jewish meat. They cure it for five days, smoke it for 10 hours, steam it for three more days, and then hand slice it thicker than you’ll find elsewhere. The result is rambunctious and almost too fatty, but not quite. You can have it with eggs any morning, or on weekends with eggs benedict, featuring a biting hollandaise and Challah bread—I didn’t eat again until dinner. Every day after 11 am, the classic pastrami on rye or Reuben sandwich are just the ticket, served with a mouth-puckering homemade slaw or thin-cut, crunchy fries.
Among other reviews, such as those in Seattle Magazine, Fearless Critic Guide, and Portland Monthly.
K&Z was also named among the 10 best sandwich shops by Bon Appetit along with the 10 best delis in North America in Maxim. David Sax also wrote us and one other deli up in Gourmet highlighting us as the future of deli. About the visit, he wrote on his blog:
Kenny and Zuke’s is more than just a great new deli. It is what new delis should aspire to, and what many established delis can learn from. There’s no trading on nostalgia here. This is all done from scratch. The food comes above all else, and you can taste that in every incredible bite of this business. There are tons of good delis out there bringing in meat from Hebrew National and other purveyors, using canned products, frozen foods, and other time and money saving things. But there will always be something missing. They’re holding on, but they aren’t moving forward, and that might just be the heart of why so many delis have gone by the wayside. I’m not talking about fusion, or making deli gourmet, or fancy. I’m talking about a return to quality. A revisiting of the old ways. A look inward, at our traditions.
That’s why those who do as much as they can themselves are in a class above.
Kenny and Zuke’s is not just great deli. It’s the future of Jewish delicatessen.
And lest you think that Sax is just another writer smitten with Portland and jumping on the band wagon, Sax is also the author of the recently released book “Save the Deli” for which he visited over 150 delis throughout the United States, Canada, and Europe.
So again, you’re certainly entitled to your opinion, but for those that disagree and don’t find it to be “next level BS”, they’re certainly in good company.
Peace, pastrami and happy Hannukah.
Stevesays
Interesting comment in the Willamette Week comparing K&Z’s pastrami with Katz’s. I just made the trek to NYC and tasted the pastrami at Katz’s and at 2nd Ave Deli and found that both had a much more delicate flavor, not at all like K&Z’s. As to which is better, to each their own. As to which is in some sense more authentic, I have no idea. But they are apples and oranges.
JandJsays
I’m in exactly the same place. 2nd Ave. Deli’s pastrami was quite a bit more delicate, as you put it. Very good in its own right but a very different animal. For my own taste, I like the more “in you’re face” taste of K&Z’s pastrami a lot… maybe even a bit better than what the best of what NYC has to offer, but completely acknowledge that this is a matter of personal preference.
I still take strong difference to people characterizing their pastrami as crap. Typical internet hyperbole… as you know, just like certain body parts, everyone has an opinion.
Humble Piesays
Didn’t I read an interview with Ken a while back where he said they were having Carlton Farms make all the pastrami? It may well be close to the same, but it could easily have taken a turn for the worse. I had a reuben there before all this and I can say it was the best I’d ever had, and for $12 bucks, it had better be. But then days later for comparison I had a $7 job at Plan B before a show, and I was surprised at how good it really was. I guess my point is that it’s a reuben – how good does it need to be in relation to how much that quality will cost the customer? Judging by some of the other comments here, it seems that extra money at K&Z doesn’t really guarantee that quality consistently, but it does guarantee that K or Z will have the free time to respond to each and every post about their joint on every blog out there.
latopdxsays
I haven’t eaten at any of the New York delis but I’ve eaten at most of the L.A. ones where I’m from. I made the mistake at eating at whatever the deli is over on NW 23rd when I moved here. Pastrami was like the stuff you get from the grocery store and the sandwiches were $10 or more. Only place back home I’d say is better than Kenny and Zuk’s is Langer’s mainly because of the bread. I like how the meat is smokier than Langer’s but still as sweet. I usually agree with the reviews here but don’t know how many delis people here have been to. Maybe they like the grocery store stuff? Or maybe New York pastrami is different?
dozasays
I love the pastrami at K&Z, but will admit I’d visit alot more often if I could treat a friend to lunch without spending 40 bucks for 2 sammies and french fries.
extramsgsays
* K&Z Lunch Special: quarter-pound “half” sandwich with potato salad or cole slaw and pickle, $7.95
* K&Z Dinner Special: quarter-pound “half” sandwich with potato salad or cole slaw and pickle, cup of soup or side salad, brownie or pecan bar sundae, $12.50.
Add fries to either of these for $1.50. You should stay well under $40.
I know that a lot of people like to point out that the reuben is $12 at K&Z’s. It’s worth noting that a reuben is also around $12 in the bar at Higgins, at Rose’s, Kornblatt’s, or Cafe Castagna. It’s not that unusual a price, especially for a place that has table service. Also, the reubens at the delicatessen are over a half pound of meat, probably twice the size of most sandwich shops around town. So while it may not be a cheap sandwich, it’s arguably as good or better a value. Further, it’s worth noting that at SandwichWorks, where there isn’t table service and you get chips instead of potato salad or cole slaw with your sandwiches, a reuben is $5 each or $8.50 for two. We call them “sliders” because they’re significantly smaller than our reubens at the delicatessen. However, several people in the food press have noted that the word “slider” is a bit of a misnomer, since they’re about the size of full-sized sandwiches at most sandwich shops
The deli is a Jewish deli. The tradition is for big sandwiches. The sandwiches aren’t ridiculously big like at Carnegie. All but a couple you can get your mouth around and don’t have to eat with a knife and fork. But a lot of people share or take half home. The lunch and dinner specials give another option.
Indeed, I can now state firsthand that the sandwich board outside K&Z’s, which says “Sandwiches as big as your head”, is reasonably accurate with reference to the turkey sandwich. (Mother ate half of hers; I got the rest for lunch the next day, because she was leaving on a trip and couldn’t take it on the road with her.)
I had the Reuben on that visit. It isn’t the largest I’ve ever seen, but it was plentiful and well made, juicy but not slathered with too much dressing. And the house pickles are excellent.
extramsgsays
We worked with Carlton Farms to try to produce a wholesale product for sale to other restaurants or grocers. We weren’t happy with the results, so we haven’t pursued it further.
Kolibrisays
Wow, ExtraMSG- think you might want to put a little full disclosure disclaimer in there somewhere??
He does say “us” in there when referencing the Sax article, and I think the majority of this gallery is aware of the connection.
That said, I don’t think it’s a big deal in the present case, where virtually all the ammo in the comment consists of properly credited quotes.
pdx_yogisays
Agree with djonn. Get over yourself, Kolibri. Besides, those are accurate review quotes.
hsawtellesays
what are you referring to?
J&Jsays
K&Z pastrami “terrible”? Man, you are seriously in need of a taste bud transplant. Maybe it’s a little thickly sliced for your likes or perhaps you got a fatty piece. That happens. But terrible is the last word I’d use to describe K&Z’s pastrami. It’s terrific and holds up very nicely to the best I’ve had in NYC.
zumpiesays
Actually, I think their pastrami sucks, as well. Sorry ExtraMSG, but you’re another example of PR and spin trumping actual quality. You might receive positive (mostly local) reviews, but like Lisa Schroeder, your actual product is painfully mediocre.
As for Rose’s, once upon a time, they were actually pretty good. For a couple of years now, they’ve served nasty, fake, rubber pastrami–so if they DO go under, there’s your answer.
Thankfully, there IS one place in town where the pastrami is still awesome: Castagna. My husband, whose grandma ran a Jewish deli in NYC, was impressed. Plus, their other offerings (e.g. almost Paris level coq au vin) are excellent, as well.
As to the turd opening the Newberg restaurant—sorry, but employment (even in this economy) is a two way street. The promise of low(ish) pay for complete devotion is absurdly unfair, even in this economy. “Only in it for a pyacheck”? Guess what, being able to have shelter and eat are fairly important things—compensation is always a consideration with any job. But obviously I had plenty of company in my negative reaction to your uber-douchey ad. I’m sure you’ve gotten exactly the staff you deserve.
Bringing me to The Viewpoint Inn: 1) it’s a shame in general, because it really IS just so pretty. BUT 2) they also had pompous, douchey ads a couple of months ago for nearly every position. Their event coordinator even contained the classic barfy “include why you are the best person and why we should even consider you” blurb. Glad I didn’t bother. I’m sure the poor people who did and were “successful” candidates are having to get paid through BOLI, since that’s another one of the owner’s time honored traditions.
Joiseysays
I guarantee you it wasn’t the event coordinator who wrote that ad. The owners have a fascination with “Devil Wears Prada” and have (weirdly) been attempting to run their business vicariously through it. I actually sat through interviews with people whose qualifications were second to their footware.
zumpiesays
Oh, I know! I realized (after I posted, of course), I left out that was the job posting FOR the event coordinator! And you have nothing but my heartfelt sympathy and admiration, Joisey. Please detail more of the interview process with those sociopaths.
Kolibrisays
VPI has been struggling since they opened- no big suprise there.
Marshall Manningsays
I’ve only been to K&Z once for pastrami, and it was dry, and so was the bread. It wasn’t “terrible”, but didn’t inspire me to go back. I’ve had much better experiences at their Sandwichworks location, as everything I’ve had there has been really good.
Food Dudesays
The problem with deli is, like pizza and a few other dishes, people tend to be greatly influenced by what they grew up with. It’s a memory thing. I think it evokes memories, and if they don’t match, people tend to reject it out of hand. K&Z doesn’t have the pastrami I grew up with (in LA), but I’m not going to dismiss it. As far as I’ve had, there isn’t any better in Portland, and that’s what matters to me.
I’ve never had a bad sandwich at K&Z’s, and, when they first opened, went in for the Ruben’s half a dozen times. I had a terrible salad once, and some inedible fries, but that was a long time ago.
That being said, I quit going after the first six months, but I think that had more to do with the crowds, and the other more interesting (to me) sandwich options available.
Went to Sandwich works the week they opened and didn’t like it at all, but like I said, that was the first week. I’d try it again if I happened to be nearby at lunch time.
Live To Eatsays
I worked at a 4 Star restaurant summer before last. They were fighting hard for that 5th Star and made us practically memorize the guide that the inspectors use. It was intense, to say the least. If we ever had a single diner we thought it might be an inspector and we would put VIP next to their name(which must be said at least 3 times during the course of the evening, by the way). One night we were making a big fuss over a single diner when I learned from another couple in the restaurant that he was there attending a conference with them. I cracked up! Here this guy was getting the same VIP service that a celebrity would get just because he happened to be dining alone.
Joiseysays
VPI…”Some” angry brides? They’ve been ripping off security deposits from weddings for the past 2 years now. You could read about it on Craiglist, but one of the owners had all the bad reviews pulled after threatening to sue everyone for slander. It aint slander if it’s true, sweetheart.
Lisa Schroeder: Did she yell at any of the hosts or crew during the segment?
Spints: *puts on PR shill hat*…another one of my friend Sean from Big Idea Group’s projects. I’m probably going to go check it out soon, will report back.
I remember that Craigslist ad when it first ran. The minimum wage thing is a douchebag way of doing business. In this economy did he think that qualified people wouldn’t be offended at a minimum wage sous gig? Hey buddy, I’m completely qualified but you can shove your job up your disingenous ass. See how you’re doing in the springtime and how you word your “help wanted” ads then (if you can still afford staff).
Live To Eatsays
Food Dude. The little snowflake things you have falling down this page freaked me out. I thought my monitor was failing!
Joiseysays
Yesterday at 4am I was rubbing my eyes, thought it was just because I was tired. That’s too funny.
sabernarsays
1998 called. They want their cheesy snowflakes back.
For gods sake, STOP THE SNOWFLAKES! It adds absolutely nothing to the site. We all know it’s winter. We don’t need annoying distractions while we’re trying to read the site.
It’s pretty traditional (and deliberately cheesy) that I run the snowflakes anytime snow is forecast. You might want to stay away at those times.
Guignolsays
Food Dude,
What are your thoughts on the Craigslist posting?? I would love to hear your angle on it…..
A Respectful Reader…
LizGsays
The Craigslist poster sounds like a coked out a frat boy to me. At the very least his ad reveals a personality (suffering from severe ADD possibly) that I think would be really painful to work with or for.
Also I think his claim that he only said he would pay minimum wage “to weed out all the people too proud to work at that wage” is totally bogus.
gal4giantssays
wow on pretty much all entries
Food Dudesays
Must be something in the air~
vicsays
Re: Oregonian/OregonLive articles disappearing after a certain time.
That’s the old way of things. Now that the newsroom posts its own articles, this is no longer an issue. The contractually-obliged pay-to-view material is routed in another fashion (actually, you can read it all for free going back to the ’80s at the Multnomah County Library site), but all new food/dining news/reviews should be permanent — no lock-up, no expiration date — on this page: http://www.oregonlive.com/dining
FYI
sidelinesays
I like K & Z But the last pastrami I had was like shavings of scraps off the cutting board. Or how do you say the bottom of the barrel bits. It was just one of those sandos that should of never left the kitchen. Maybe the cook will learn better next time? Who knows.
Re: the Craigslist ad: the poster is in love with the sound of his writing. He’s not a bad writer, but when looking for a serious candidate for a serious job, you’re better off respecting those you’re addressing, not talking at length about how they need to respect you and your set-up and your habits and your your your.
One correction: I think Spints is a block north of Tabla, not directly cattycorner
Kernelsays
I really enjoy K&Z’s pastrami and I think that when it’s on, it’s as good as anywhere. But the delivery MUST be more consistent. Two of the last three times I ordered one, the bulk of it was fat. I don’t mind paying $12 for a sandwich, but I expect it to be filled with decent cuts of meat, not fat.
extramsgsays
Traditionally pastrami is fattier than what we have, since it often came from the plate rather than the brisket. Since we use whole briskets (like they do with “smoked meat” in Canada), there are fattier cuts and leaner cuts. Some people ask for it fatty. Some people ask for it lean. Those who don’t ask, just get whichever is on the carving board. Please indicate you would like it lean or fully-trimmed of fat and you should be much happier.
MrDonutsusays
Smoked meat? As in Schwartz’s of Montréal??
Now we’re talking!
Kernelsays
Fair enough – thanks for the response. I’ll ask in the future.
Pastramimavensays
RE: Kenny & Zukes
You know how you have a favorite song by a favorite artist and, over the years, you hear other artists sing the song but it’s never as good as the original. Then one day, many years later, you hear the song sung completly differently by a new artist and you like it even better than the original and have a whole new appreciation for the song? That’s how I feel about the Pastrami at K&Z. I grew up in the deli business in San Francisco and had my share of wonderful traditional pastrami and have lamented for many years the unavailability of the real thing and the emergence of the dreck that now passes for pastrami in most delis. I went to K&Z not expecting much and when the plate was placed in front of me I thought that it was another waste of time but after the first bite, you know what? It was a revelation! that’s what. It was absolutely not authentic N.Y. pastrami. It was better! I no longer dream about N.Y. pastrami. I hunger for K&Z and can’t wait to make the drive from Ashland again to savor the wonderful smoky flavor. Old dogs CAN learn new tricks.
cookforhiresays
RE KZ
Been wanting to vent about this: I work near KZ, my coworkers and I were excited to put it into our take out rotation. After a series of messed up orders, a rude & unhelpful server and being overcharged once, we have not been back.
hsawtellesays
I had the same problem at Tabla last weekend. It was my first visit and my expectations were high because all I have heard are raves. I couldn’t figure out what all the hype was about but hopefully it was just an off weekend or night for some reason.
chefkensays
Here’s the thing: There’s no such thing as “authentic pastrami.” It’s like saying “authentic Pizza.” There are a multitude of styles and there’s no one that’s the ideal. Depends on your tastes – New York does it different than Montreal or L.A. or Detroit or Miami. And they can all be good. Depends on what you grew up on, usually. I think ours is smokier and spicier than New York’s standard. Doesn’t mean it’s better or worse. We’ve never called ourselves a New York deli, or an anywhere else deli. We do what we do and hope to be judged at face value.
That being said, we fuck up occasionally. We serve an average of 7-800 people per day, a good deal of those in a very short time span. Which gets a bit crazy sometimes. The overwhelmingly majority of the orders come out pretty damn good, which is why we continue to do 7-800 people per day, even through the recession. Those that we mess up – if we find out about them – we make every possible attempt to make good on. And we’re constantly trying to get better, and eliminate those fuck-ups. It’s just a numbers game sometimes – every restaurants screws up once in awhile, and I don’t think our percentage is any higher than most. And we’re pretty open to constructive criticism (the occasional “your pastrami sucks!” a possible exception).
Because of Jewish Deli food being what it is and almost everyone having a frame of reference for it, it inflames a lot of passions and everyone seems to have an opinion on it. You’d be amazed. About 1/2 of our customers love our pastrami as is, while the other 1/2 (that would be, ahem, the more vocal 1/2) think it should be fattier, or leaner, or smokier, or not as smokey, or sliced paper thin on a machine, or spicier, or more delicate, and on, and on, and on. Everyone has an opinion, because it’s the food they grew up on, or what their grandmother made, or some other connection.
It can be infuriating, because no matter what, it’s never the way everyone wants it. It can’t be. A place like Apizza Scholl’s has the same problem – too charred, not charred enough, not enough cheese, not enough choices, what no pineapple?, etc. Except we have a way larger menu and more variety and everyone and their brother has an opinion – usually a very vocal one – about every item. I get stopped in the street or in stores or on movie lines about 10 times per week by someone letting me know what I should do differently.
No ones forcing anyone to pay $12+ for a Reuben, nor is anyone forced to pay $25.00 per lb. for Salumi from Seattle, or $28.00 per lb. for a Pont L’Eveque from Steve’s Cheese, or $28.00 for a Pork Chop at Bluehour, or $8 for 3 little stuffed dates at Toro Bravo. The fact is, just about every complaint I’ve read of the price of our Reuben was followed by the comment “but I took half of it home for lunch the next day.” The fact is, if you weigh one of our sandwiches and price it per pound, I’d put it up against just about anyone’s in town value-wise, quality aside. And it comes with a side.
We’re just trying to do the best we can.
snowyakersays
I like your pastrami just the way it is, Ken. Reading all these posts reminds me that I haven’t been one of the 7-800 people lately. I think I’ll change that tomorrow or early next week.
And I dig Sandwich Works too, though I visit less often since I moved to a new neighborhood.
It’s always funny to me that when I come to this site it seems like more of the posters hate food than love it. They are way more interested in telling people what they don’t like about something than what they do. The exception seems to be the Dude and a few other professional food writers on here.
I’ll vouch for K&Z’s meatball, Dude. I’ll put it up there with Bunk and Garden State – both elite company in my opinion.
Finally, I rarely meet a New Yorker who has moved away who doesn’t incessantly ramble about how great NYC is and how much more superior the city is to all other places in the world. It’s like it’s their favorite past time. Don’t get me wrong. I love New York too, but I’ll take Portland thank you very much.
chefkensays
Oh, and Dude? Next time you’re at Sandwichworks try the Meatball Hero. If you don’t really like it, it’s on me.
Vicki Abbottsays
Chefken, you’re absolutely right; what we grew up with is what we love. I grew up in LA and the famous Canter’s was around the corner from my high school (Fairfax) oh, so many years ago, and I ate many a happy pastrami sandwich there. So my criteria is thin sliced, highly spiced, on soft, classic rye bread. So, alas, Chefken, I found your pastrami less than wonderful. But the appropriate deli spirit is at K&Z and I do love that.
Samantha says
Re: Rose’s Deli in Tanasborne
My understanding was that the rent the mall was charging was astronomical. I had a friend who was working as a server there, and this is what they shared. I don’t find this all that surprising though. Happened to a coffee shop I liked to visit that had another location on the South Waterfront. That location was paying half as much rent as the Tanasborne location.
Morgan Ennis says
Hi, I am the owner of Immortal Pie and Larder and I just want to make one small correction to Food Dude’s lovely shout out. The address will actually be 8029 SE Stark St, in the Montavilla neighborhood, between Ya Hala and The Observatory. Can’t wait to move in!
Vicki Abbott says
I love pastrami. I love chopped liver, too. But I can’t imagine them together in a sandwich. They’re delicacies that need to be appreciated on their own.
johnny says
I gotta say Liza Schroeder should be writting a book on how to make PR firm work for you.Not to say the food her food is bad but Mothers bistro is the most average restaurant I’ve ever eaten at and Mama Mias is slightly below average but how this Chef can spin these places is truly an art form. And yes this a compliment
djonn says
I wondered about the Tanasbourne Rose’s when its address was left off of a recent ad insert in the Big O. That always seemed to me like an odd location for them, given that the surrounding mall seemed to be trying really hard to project a seriously upscale image (and Rose’s location within the complex wasn’t ideal in terms of signage or ability to attract drive-by traffic).
I wish them well and hope that they find a more affordable location here on the west side. (I’m not sure yet, but I think someone’s actually doing some remodeling work on the old Rose’s building — more recently Hooters — over at Beaverton Town Square….)
matt says
Sorry, but this is some next-level bs. Their pastrami is terrible, and is handily surpassed by any number of neighborhood delis and diners all over the east coast.
extramsg says
Each person is entitled to their opinion, but David Sax, the author of the Maxim piece, has a lot of reputable company for his:
Matt Kramer in the Oregonian:
Mike Thelin in The Willamette Week:
Matt Davis in The Portland Mercury:
Among other reviews, such as those in Seattle Magazine, Fearless Critic Guide, and Portland Monthly.
K&Z was also named among the 10 best sandwich shops by Bon Appetit along with the 10 best delis in North America in Maxim. David Sax also wrote us and one other deli up in Gourmet highlighting us as the future of deli. About the visit, he wrote on his blog:
And lest you think that Sax is just another writer smitten with Portland and jumping on the band wagon, Sax is also the author of the recently released book “Save the Deli” for which he visited over 150 delis throughout the United States, Canada, and Europe.
So again, you’re certainly entitled to your opinion, but for those that disagree and don’t find it to be “next level BS”, they’re certainly in good company.
Peace, pastrami and happy Hannukah.
Steve says
Interesting comment in the Willamette Week comparing K&Z’s pastrami with Katz’s. I just made the trek to NYC and tasted the pastrami at Katz’s and at 2nd Ave Deli and found that both had a much more delicate flavor, not at all like K&Z’s. As to which is better, to each their own. As to which is in some sense more authentic, I have no idea. But they are apples and oranges.
JandJ says
I’m in exactly the same place. 2nd Ave. Deli’s pastrami was quite a bit more delicate, as you put it. Very good in its own right but a very different animal. For my own taste, I like the more “in you’re face” taste of K&Z’s pastrami a lot… maybe even a bit better than what the best of what NYC has to offer, but completely acknowledge that this is a matter of personal preference.
I still take strong difference to people characterizing their pastrami as crap. Typical internet hyperbole… as you know, just like certain body parts, everyone has an opinion.
Humble Pie says
Didn’t I read an interview with Ken a while back where he said they were having Carlton Farms make all the pastrami? It may well be close to the same, but it could easily have taken a turn for the worse. I had a reuben there before all this and I can say it was the best I’d ever had, and for $12 bucks, it had better be. But then days later for comparison I had a $7 job at Plan B before a show, and I was surprised at how good it really was. I guess my point is that it’s a reuben – how good does it need to be in relation to how much that quality will cost the customer? Judging by some of the other comments here, it seems that extra money at K&Z doesn’t really guarantee that quality consistently, but it does guarantee that K or Z will have the free time to respond to each and every post about their joint on every blog out there.
latopdx says
I haven’t eaten at any of the New York delis but I’ve eaten at most of the L.A. ones where I’m from. I made the mistake at eating at whatever the deli is over on NW 23rd when I moved here. Pastrami was like the stuff you get from the grocery store and the sandwiches were $10 or more. Only place back home I’d say is better than Kenny and Zuk’s is Langer’s mainly because of the bread. I like how the meat is smokier than Langer’s but still as sweet. I usually agree with the reviews here but don’t know how many delis people here have been to. Maybe they like the grocery store stuff? Or maybe New York pastrami is different?
doza says
I love the pastrami at K&Z, but will admit I’d visit alot more often if I could treat a friend to lunch without spending 40 bucks for 2 sammies and french fries.
extramsg says
* K&Z Lunch Special: quarter-pound “half” sandwich with potato salad or cole slaw and pickle, $7.95
* K&Z Dinner Special: quarter-pound “half” sandwich with potato salad or cole slaw and pickle, cup of soup or side salad, brownie or pecan bar sundae, $12.50.
Add fries to either of these for $1.50. You should stay well under $40.
I know that a lot of people like to point out that the reuben is $12 at K&Z’s. It’s worth noting that a reuben is also around $12 in the bar at Higgins, at Rose’s, Kornblatt’s, or Cafe Castagna. It’s not that unusual a price, especially for a place that has table service. Also, the reubens at the delicatessen are over a half pound of meat, probably twice the size of most sandwich shops around town. So while it may not be a cheap sandwich, it’s arguably as good or better a value. Further, it’s worth noting that at SandwichWorks, where there isn’t table service and you get chips instead of potato salad or cole slaw with your sandwiches, a reuben is $5 each or $8.50 for two. We call them “sliders” because they’re significantly smaller than our reubens at the delicatessen. However, several people in the food press have noted that the word “slider” is a bit of a misnomer, since they’re about the size of full-sized sandwiches at most sandwich shops
The deli is a Jewish deli. The tradition is for big sandwiches. The sandwiches aren’t ridiculously big like at Carnegie. All but a couple you can get your mouth around and don’t have to eat with a knife and fork. But a lot of people share or take half home. The lunch and dinner specials give another option.
djonn says
Indeed, I can now state firsthand that the sandwich board outside K&Z’s, which says “Sandwiches as big as your head”, is reasonably accurate with reference to the turkey sandwich. (Mother ate half of hers; I got the rest for lunch the next day, because she was leaving on a trip and couldn’t take it on the road with her.)
I had the Reuben on that visit. It isn’t the largest I’ve ever seen, but it was plentiful and well made, juicy but not slathered with too much dressing. And the house pickles are excellent.
extramsg says
We worked with Carlton Farms to try to produce a wholesale product for sale to other restaurants or grocers. We weren’t happy with the results, so we haven’t pursued it further.
Kolibri says
Wow, ExtraMSG- think you might want to put a little full disclosure disclaimer in there somewhere??
djonn says
He does say “us” in there when referencing the Sax article, and I think the majority of this gallery is aware of the connection.
That said, I don’t think it’s a big deal in the present case, where virtually all the ammo in the comment consists of properly credited quotes.
pdx_yogi says
Agree with djonn. Get over yourself, Kolibri. Besides, those are accurate review quotes.
hsawtelle says
what are you referring to?
J&J says
K&Z pastrami “terrible”? Man, you are seriously in need of a taste bud transplant. Maybe it’s a little thickly sliced for your likes or perhaps you got a fatty piece. That happens. But terrible is the last word I’d use to describe K&Z’s pastrami. It’s terrific and holds up very nicely to the best I’ve had in NYC.
zumpie says
Actually, I think their pastrami sucks, as well. Sorry ExtraMSG, but you’re another example of PR and spin trumping actual quality. You might receive positive (mostly local) reviews, but like Lisa Schroeder, your actual product is painfully mediocre.
As for Rose’s, once upon a time, they were actually pretty good. For a couple of years now, they’ve served nasty, fake, rubber pastrami–so if they DO go under, there’s your answer.
Thankfully, there IS one place in town where the pastrami is still awesome: Castagna. My husband, whose grandma ran a Jewish deli in NYC, was impressed. Plus, their other offerings (e.g. almost Paris level coq au vin) are excellent, as well.
As to the turd opening the Newberg restaurant—sorry, but employment (even in this economy) is a two way street. The promise of low(ish) pay for complete devotion is absurdly unfair, even in this economy. “Only in it for a pyacheck”? Guess what, being able to have shelter and eat are fairly important things—compensation is always a consideration with any job. But obviously I had plenty of company in my negative reaction to your uber-douchey ad. I’m sure you’ve gotten exactly the staff you deserve.
Bringing me to The Viewpoint Inn: 1) it’s a shame in general, because it really IS just so pretty. BUT 2) they also had pompous, douchey ads a couple of months ago for nearly every position. Their event coordinator even contained the classic barfy “include why you are the best person and why we should even consider you” blurb. Glad I didn’t bother. I’m sure the poor people who did and were “successful” candidates are having to get paid through BOLI, since that’s another one of the owner’s time honored traditions.
Joisey says
I guarantee you it wasn’t the event coordinator who wrote that ad. The owners have a fascination with “Devil Wears Prada” and have (weirdly) been attempting to run their business vicariously through it. I actually sat through interviews with people whose qualifications were second to their footware.
zumpie says
Oh, I know! I realized (after I posted, of course), I left out that was the job posting FOR the event coordinator! And you have nothing but my heartfelt sympathy and admiration, Joisey. Please detail more of the interview process with those sociopaths.
Kolibri says
VPI has been struggling since they opened- no big suprise there.
Marshall Manning says
I’ve only been to K&Z once for pastrami, and it was dry, and so was the bread. It wasn’t “terrible”, but didn’t inspire me to go back. I’ve had much better experiences at their Sandwichworks location, as everything I’ve had there has been really good.
Food Dude says
The problem with deli is, like pizza and a few other dishes, people tend to be greatly influenced by what they grew up with. It’s a memory thing. I think it evokes memories, and if they don’t match, people tend to reject it out of hand. K&Z doesn’t have the pastrami I grew up with (in LA), but I’m not going to dismiss it. As far as I’ve had, there isn’t any better in Portland, and that’s what matters to me.
I’ve never had a bad sandwich at K&Z’s, and, when they first opened, went in for the Ruben’s half a dozen times. I had a terrible salad once, and some inedible fries, but that was a long time ago.
That being said, I quit going after the first six months, but I think that had more to do with the crowds, and the other more interesting (to me) sandwich options available.
Went to Sandwich works the week they opened and didn’t like it at all, but like I said, that was the first week. I’d try it again if I happened to be nearby at lunch time.
Live To Eat says
I worked at a 4 Star restaurant summer before last. They were fighting hard for that 5th Star and made us practically memorize the guide that the inspectors use. It was intense, to say the least. If we ever had a single diner we thought it might be an inspector and we would put VIP next to their name(which must be said at least 3 times during the course of the evening, by the way). One night we were making a big fuss over a single diner when I learned from another couple in the restaurant that he was there attending a conference with them. I cracked up! Here this guy was getting the same VIP service that a celebrity would get just because he happened to be dining alone.
Joisey says
VPI…”Some” angry brides? They’ve been ripping off security deposits from weddings for the past 2 years now. You could read about it on Craiglist, but one of the owners had all the bad reviews pulled after threatening to sue everyone for slander. It aint slander if it’s true, sweetheart.
Lisa Schroeder: Did she yell at any of the hosts or crew during the segment?
Spints: *puts on PR shill hat*…another one of my friend Sean from Big Idea Group’s projects. I’m probably going to go check it out soon, will report back.
I remember that Craigslist ad when it first ran. The minimum wage thing is a douchebag way of doing business. In this economy did he think that qualified people wouldn’t be offended at a minimum wage sous gig? Hey buddy, I’m completely qualified but you can shove your job up your disingenous ass. See how you’re doing in the springtime and how you word your “help wanted” ads then (if you can still afford staff).
Live To Eat says
Food Dude. The little snowflake things you have falling down this page freaked me out. I thought my monitor was failing!
Joisey says
Yesterday at 4am I was rubbing my eyes, thought it was just because I was tired. That’s too funny.
sabernar says
1998 called. They want their cheesy snowflakes back.
For gods sake, STOP THE SNOWFLAKES! It adds absolutely nothing to the site. We all know it’s winter. We don’t need annoying distractions while we’re trying to read the site.
Cuisine Bonne Femme says
I like the snowflakes.
Food Dude says
It’s pretty traditional (and deliberately cheesy) that I run the snowflakes anytime snow is forecast. You might want to stay away at those times.
Guignol says
Food Dude,
What are your thoughts on the Craigslist posting?? I would love to hear your angle on it…..
A Respectful Reader…
LizG says
The Craigslist poster sounds like a coked out a frat boy to me. At the very least his ad reveals a personality (suffering from severe ADD possibly) that I think would be really painful to work with or for.
Also I think his claim that he only said he would pay minimum wage “to weed out all the people too proud to work at that wage” is totally bogus.
gal4giants says
wow on pretty much all entries
Food Dude says
Must be something in the air~
vic says
Re: Oregonian/OregonLive articles disappearing after a certain time.
That’s the old way of things. Now that the newsroom posts its own articles, this is no longer an issue. The contractually-obliged pay-to-view material is routed in another fashion (actually, you can read it all for free going back to the ’80s at the Multnomah County Library site), but all new food/dining news/reviews should be permanent — no lock-up, no expiration date — on this page: http://www.oregonlive.com/dining
FYI
sideline says
I like K & Z But the last pastrami I had was like shavings of scraps off the cutting board. Or how do you say the bottom of the barrel bits. It was just one of those sandos that should of never left the kitchen. Maybe the cook will learn better next time? Who knows.
Nancy Rommelmann says
Re: the Craigslist ad: the poster is in love with the sound of his writing. He’s not a bad writer, but when looking for a serious candidate for a serious job, you’re better off respecting those you’re addressing, not talking at length about how they need to respect you and your set-up and your habits and your your your.
One correction: I think Spints is a block north of Tabla, not directly cattycorner
Kernel says
I really enjoy K&Z’s pastrami and I think that when it’s on, it’s as good as anywhere. But the delivery MUST be more consistent. Two of the last three times I ordered one, the bulk of it was fat. I don’t mind paying $12 for a sandwich, but I expect it to be filled with decent cuts of meat, not fat.
extramsg says
Traditionally pastrami is fattier than what we have, since it often came from the plate rather than the brisket. Since we use whole briskets (like they do with “smoked meat” in Canada), there are fattier cuts and leaner cuts. Some people ask for it fatty. Some people ask for it lean. Those who don’t ask, just get whichever is on the carving board. Please indicate you would like it lean or fully-trimmed of fat and you should be much happier.
MrDonutsu says
Smoked meat? As in Schwartz’s of Montréal??
Now we’re talking!
Kernel says
Fair enough – thanks for the response. I’ll ask in the future.
Pastramimaven says
RE: Kenny & Zukes
You know how you have a favorite song by a favorite artist and, over the years, you hear other artists sing the song but it’s never as good as the original. Then one day, many years later, you hear the song sung completly differently by a new artist and you like it even better than the original and have a whole new appreciation for the song? That’s how I feel about the Pastrami at K&Z. I grew up in the deli business in San Francisco and had my share of wonderful traditional pastrami and have lamented for many years the unavailability of the real thing and the emergence of the dreck that now passes for pastrami in most delis. I went to K&Z not expecting much and when the plate was placed in front of me I thought that it was another waste of time but after the first bite, you know what? It was a revelation! that’s what. It was absolutely not authentic N.Y. pastrami. It was better! I no longer dream about N.Y. pastrami. I hunger for K&Z and can’t wait to make the drive from Ashland again to savor the wonderful smoky flavor. Old dogs CAN learn new tricks.
cookforhire says
RE KZ
Been wanting to vent about this: I work near KZ, my coworkers and I were excited to put it into our take out rotation. After a series of messed up orders, a rude & unhelpful server and being overcharged once, we have not been back.
hsawtelle says
I had the same problem at Tabla last weekend. It was my first visit and my expectations were high because all I have heard are raves. I couldn’t figure out what all the hype was about but hopefully it was just an off weekend or night for some reason.
chefken says
Here’s the thing: There’s no such thing as “authentic pastrami.” It’s like saying “authentic Pizza.” There are a multitude of styles and there’s no one that’s the ideal. Depends on your tastes – New York does it different than Montreal or L.A. or Detroit or Miami. And they can all be good. Depends on what you grew up on, usually. I think ours is smokier and spicier than New York’s standard. Doesn’t mean it’s better or worse. We’ve never called ourselves a New York deli, or an anywhere else deli. We do what we do and hope to be judged at face value.
That being said, we fuck up occasionally. We serve an average of 7-800 people per day, a good deal of those in a very short time span. Which gets a bit crazy sometimes. The overwhelmingly majority of the orders come out pretty damn good, which is why we continue to do 7-800 people per day, even through the recession. Those that we mess up – if we find out about them – we make every possible attempt to make good on. And we’re constantly trying to get better, and eliminate those fuck-ups. It’s just a numbers game sometimes – every restaurants screws up once in awhile, and I don’t think our percentage is any higher than most. And we’re pretty open to constructive criticism (the occasional “your pastrami sucks!” a possible exception).
Because of Jewish Deli food being what it is and almost everyone having a frame of reference for it, it inflames a lot of passions and everyone seems to have an opinion on it. You’d be amazed. About 1/2 of our customers love our pastrami as is, while the other 1/2 (that would be, ahem, the more vocal 1/2) think it should be fattier, or leaner, or smokier, or not as smokey, or sliced paper thin on a machine, or spicier, or more delicate, and on, and on, and on. Everyone has an opinion, because it’s the food they grew up on, or what their grandmother made, or some other connection.
It can be infuriating, because no matter what, it’s never the way everyone wants it. It can’t be. A place like Apizza Scholl’s has the same problem – too charred, not charred enough, not enough cheese, not enough choices, what no pineapple?, etc. Except we have a way larger menu and more variety and everyone and their brother has an opinion – usually a very vocal one – about every item. I get stopped in the street or in stores or on movie lines about 10 times per week by someone letting me know what I should do differently.
No ones forcing anyone to pay $12+ for a Reuben, nor is anyone forced to pay $25.00 per lb. for Salumi from Seattle, or $28.00 per lb. for a Pont L’Eveque from Steve’s Cheese, or $28.00 for a Pork Chop at Bluehour, or $8 for 3 little stuffed dates at Toro Bravo. The fact is, just about every complaint I’ve read of the price of our Reuben was followed by the comment “but I took half of it home for lunch the next day.” The fact is, if you weigh one of our sandwiches and price it per pound, I’d put it up against just about anyone’s in town value-wise, quality aside. And it comes with a side.
We’re just trying to do the best we can.
snowyaker says
I like your pastrami just the way it is, Ken. Reading all these posts reminds me that I haven’t been one of the 7-800 people lately. I think I’ll change that tomorrow or early next week.
And I dig Sandwich Works too, though I visit less often since I moved to a new neighborhood.
It’s always funny to me that when I come to this site it seems like more of the posters hate food than love it. They are way more interested in telling people what they don’t like about something than what they do. The exception seems to be the Dude and a few other professional food writers on here.
I’ll vouch for K&Z’s meatball, Dude. I’ll put it up there with Bunk and Garden State – both elite company in my opinion.
Finally, I rarely meet a New Yorker who has moved away who doesn’t incessantly ramble about how great NYC is and how much more superior the city is to all other places in the world. It’s like it’s their favorite past time. Don’t get me wrong. I love New York too, but I’ll take Portland thank you very much.
chefken says
Oh, and Dude? Next time you’re at Sandwichworks try the Meatball Hero. If you don’t really like it, it’s on me.
Vicki Abbott says
Chefken, you’re absolutely right; what we grew up with is what we love. I grew up in LA and the famous Canter’s was around the corner from my high school (Fairfax) oh, so many years ago, and I ate many a happy pastrami sandwich there. So my criteria is thin sliced, highly spiced, on soft, classic rye bread. So, alas, Chefken, I found your pastrami less than wonderful. But the appropriate deli spirit is at K&Z and I do love that.