If you pay in advance for a reservation at a restaurant, should you be able to cancel it without penalty?
This discussion originally started with the Beast Restaurant review, but really could be about any restaurant, so I moved the comments regarding reservations in general. The debate is about whether the restaurant should be willing to bend their reservation cancellation policy for a few people.
These are the comments that started the parade:
Emily says
extramsg says
It’s a small restaurant built on a model of buying exactly what they need for any given service and only having two turns. They have expectations that affect their budget and bottom line. They have a high corkage fee, a no substitutions policy, and a no cancellations policy. The diner is free to choose somewhere else if that doesn’t meet with their approval. It shouldn’t offend them. It’s not rude. It’s what they do because they think it’s the best choice for their business. Maybe it helps them maintain a certain price level with more expensive ingredients. Maybe it lets them pay their cooks more. Who knows? Not you. But they’re obviously “EXTREMELY rude” for not letting you out of what you had presumably already agreed to. Ah, HIYW, showing again that they’re the worst four words in the American dining scene.
Hopefully when you do complain to your friends, they have the sense to look at you skeptically and ask why you made a reservation at a place with such policies if you weren’t sure you could keep it.
Let me ask you this: if you have tickets to the opera, or tickets to a concert, or tickets to a Blazers game, do you ask for a refund if “an unexpected scheduling conflict” arises? Did they laugh in your face?
It may be a tough policy, a strict policy, an inconvenient policy, etc. It may be a policy you’re not willing to agree to and so decide not to visit Beast. But to make the leap to defaming an individual who sticks to that policy or created that policy, just because you don’t like it, is rude. Extremely.
Feel free to chime in below!
Feel free to weigh in with your thoughts.
Extra Yeast Extract says
extramsg-
I can’t believe that I am responding to you, but seriously man, are you ever going to give it a rest? Do you need to re-educate every person who voices an opinion that you may not share? How does this person’s choice affect your business or your well-being? Perhaps Naomi was rude when Emily was explaining her situation. Perhaps Emily was rude or presumptuous in assuming that Naomi would relax the policy because of her situation. Who knows? You and I sure as heck don’t know. However, as a small business owner and defender of the restaurant and everything that is great within food, you have taken it upon yourself to fight another “good” fight.
I appreciate the good sense you show in some of your comments. I have eaten at your restaurant and had experiences. I have worked in restaurants and will continue to do so in the future. What I can tell you with all of my experience (which I am certain is flawed) is that at some point, we are all rude. The problem with being on the business side though is that we must ask ourselves whether or not we can afford to be. You apparently can and I wish you continued success despite your willingness to affront people in these forums. I also wish that you would bite your tongue a bit more than you do simply for the common good. If you are making efforts to censure yourself some, cheers to you! Cheers to everyone else too if that is the case.
Now look what has happened. I have called you out on calling people out. Needless to say, I am sure that you will be doing this over and over and over again. You are welcome to email me if you’d like, but please save the rest of the people online from having to sit through class.
If FD cannot give my email away, I would send it to you at your restaurant if you’d like.
qv says
I for one am glad that MSG has the time and the tostones to risk offending people to educate them.
What he said needing saying and I’m glad he got to it before I did.
Seriously.. is it a caste system thing? People expect restaurant owners/employees to put up with things no other business would.
The comparison to asking for a refund for a sports event or concert was very apt.
Extra Yeast Extract says
I see how this starts.
Comparing restaurant reservations to tickets at a sporting event is not generally a good way of modeling how the two businesses work. If a reservation is canceled two hours before a restaurant opens, it is very likely that someone else will call and ask for a reservation for that night. In the case of Beast, which I hear is very successful, I would not be surprised if they had a waiting list each night for reservations, or if they would be willing to add one’s name and number to a list just in case something opened up on for a desired seating. Point is, with ample notice almost all reservations can be replaced.
Considering this, are punitive cancellation fees “fair” or “reasonable” regardless of policy if a reservation can be filled anyways? We don’t know when Emily canceled. We don’t know if Beast was able to fill the seats that were to be occupied by Emily’s party, yet here everyone goes. Ask some freaking questions before you speculate yourselves into a restaurant etiquette frenzy.
This could all be avoided if restaurants, sporting events, and airplanes overbooked every occasion. Seating would become a “first come first serve” policy. Those who chose to show late would lose their seats, regardless of circumstances or excuses. This is a ridiculous suggestion though, but I am sure that people would support the policy with all the self righteousness they could muster until their special circumstance arose when they unfairly lost their seat.
Again, concerts/sporting events and restaurants are guns and butter. Until you understand why they are so drastically different, I ask that you not make a reservation at any restaurant. Consider everything general admission and see where that gets you on a Friday after bad traffic.
qv says
..but empty seats in a sporting event or concert venue could presumably be filled as well.
It is more work for the restaurant to have to constantly juggle people’s cancellations and fill slots..not to mention party size.. if the reso was for say.. 5 people you need to either find a 5 top or a 2 + a 3 willing to come in during that slot on short notice. And if they’ve already made their policy abundantly clear why should they have to? Because YOU say so?
Taking reservations is a courtesy to begin with when you consider how many cretins out there want it to be a totally one sided relationship.
Why did places start these fees to begin with? Because there is a strong enough majority of people out there who cost restaurants a great deal of money with there selfish and rude behaviors.
Don’t take resos- people bitch that you don’t take resos
Take resos w/no fee- lose money when party size changes, they show up a half hour late and throw all the other resos off, they don’t show b/c they made 4 resos at 4 different restaurants and then just picked which to show up at (happens A LOT)…lose money
Take resos w/cancellation fee- intelligent polite people who planned on showing up for the reso couldn’t care less because it doesn’t affect them.
qv says
oh ..ah..yeah.. and as to Friday traffic?
Some people with IQs even slightly above room temperature are able to have enough forethought to allow for traffic in their plans.
My guess is that Chef Naomi is deliberately weeding out the stupid, the disorganized and the rude with her policies. If thats the case she deserves a medal, a plaque, a bottle of champagne, a dozen roses & a pony.
Good for her.
Extra Yeast Extract says
Why would you want to weed people out? Are restaurants supposed to be exclusive or do they exist for people to come and give you money for stuff you like to make? Does it matter if they get “it?” It shouldn’t, that is unless one’s ego is too big for their britches. Christ people, its just food.
qv-I understand why restaurants do and do not take reservations. Reservations are a service offered by a restaurant. Smart restaurant owners know how to juggle reservations with walk-ins working to achieve maximum capacity every night. I know you understand this, so why make such a stink out of it. We all know that you are in the business side of it to make money and to make sure that the idiots, rubes, morons, uncool, uneducated, disorganized, rude, etc. don’t take what you are working so hard to get. Good on you.
How this turned into an assault on people’s intelligence is why this is so infuriating. Again, nobody knows why, when, or how Emily canceled her reservation. Yet you are now implying that she is not as intelligent as people who only make reservations when they know that nothing could come up. That is ridiculous. Things happen sometimes that are outside of our control. Do you not understand that?
I haven’t said that anyone should do anything with their business or their policies by the way. I just asked that people take a moment to think about the situation before calling someone stupid because they stated that they felt mistreated. Think about it from both sides. I know how hard it is to separate oneself from a business. It is very easy to become a one-dimensional person while in the restaurant industry; there’s a lot to worry about.
extramsg-Dude. Think about it. Portland Opera vs Kenny and Zuke’s. Trailblazers Season Pass vs. Bluehour dinner. You do not operate the same type of business. They may all fall under luxury spending, they may all have seats that need to be filled, and they may all ask that people show up and leave at the same time, but do you really think they are the same? Do you really believe that? Crazy. Best to you though.
Thanks JandJ, its nice to hear from someone who isn’t a little wrapped up in it all.
qv says
“Why would you want to weed people out?”
Because hospitality is a two way street.
And for some, the amount of money a certain guest may spend at one time or in the future is not worth the aggravation they bring.
As to patron vs industry POV… um.. people in the industry are patrons as well. Most industry people dine out as or more frequently than non industry. So yes, an industry POV is a patron POV as well. Only difference is industry people tend to see the people waiting on them as equals.
kolibri says
I seriously doubt that Naomi views her policy as a means to “weed people out”. QV seems to think that everyone is as judgemental as he is. Her reservation policy is in place to protect her business and I completely agree with it. Enought with the pretention, Good Lord!
JandJ says
OK… good perspective from the standpoint of a restaurant owner. Now, how about something from a patron. You don’t take reservations… generally, you don’t get my business. I don’t work 10-ish hours, then spend 30-40 more minutes in traffic to sit in a freakin’ line in front of a restaurant for another hour. Sorry… no reservations might work well for owners, but they suck at least from this patron’s perspective. On a weekend, where there might be a bit more time flexibility, and if there’s a place I *really* want to try, I might wait it out or show up early. I realize this is my choice, but frankly I’d much rather deal with a fair cancellation policy that somehow penalizes me for not showing up than having to cool my heels outside in mid-winter or stand around in a cramped waiting area. We at least can agree on one thing, which is the fact that the restaurant owner shouldn’t have to completely bear the burden of uncaring and inconsiderate patrons. But, making me wait an hour to get seated doesn’t exactly strike me as being particularly patron-friendly either. Would be nice to have an alternative.
Not sure what this has to do with Beast, but had to get that out. :-)
JandJ says
Tried answering QVs comments directly, but no “Reply” option for some reason…
So, QV, do you have such a low opinion of your customers to believe that many (maybe even most) don’t regard servers as equals? I only ask that they do their job in a reasonable manner and help make the experience of eating out that much more pleasant. In no way does that suggest that they are not equals in any way, shape, or form.
That feels like a complete generalization, and frankly, a little insulting to someone who understands and very much appreciates the difficult job a server has to do.
qv says
As noted by the quote I was responding directly to Yeast Extract comments.
Also, weeding out is not a generalization…you weed out the people who aren’t respectful and retain the ones that are. It is selective pruning.
I actually have a very, very high opinion of my customers. They want what I have and I give it to them. Anyone who wants something other than what I have to give finds out that I’m not interested in changing what I offer and they go elsewhere.
I don’t understand how you were insulted by something that wasn’t addressed to you?
JandJ says
QV, regardless who you were aiming the comment at, it seemed to reflect an odd additude towards customers in general. Was trying to suggest that there are lots of people around who don’t feel that way at all. If I misread your intent, my apologies.
qv says
To kolibri (since there was no reply option after their post)
The “weeding people out” was in direct response to people talking about how they wouldn’t patronize places with such a policy. When you choose to have a policy that will make certain people not patronize you you are in fact, weeding those people out. This is not a value judgement, just a simple fact. A place that serves Mexican food is weeding out people who don’t like Mexican food.
Also, really wish people who use the word “pretentious” or “pretention” would bother to learn what the word means. There is nothing being talked about in this thread to which “pretention”.
Oh, wait.. because there is no such thing as “pretention”
It is pretension, kolibri.
If you could have spelled it properly, and therefore looked it up in a dictionary you would realize that there is no aspect of this that pretension applies to.
Call it mean, or bitchy, or any number of things relating to the fact that many restaurant owners don’t feel the need to felate every entitled asshat that walks in with a attitude.. but pretension it isn’t.
Find a new word Portland Foodie Scene. Pretension is not what you think it is.
qv says
Again, no place to reply.
kolibri,
If you inferred that from my words I apologise to both Beast and to yourself.
Weeding people out with policies is something that simply HAPPENS.
Read Lessons in Excellence by Charlie Trotter if you want to know what I mean because I don’t want to go too far off topic.
Basic gist- every policy choice a business owner makes includes some people and excludes others. Location, parking cuisine, credit card options, childrens menus or lack thereof, pricing… dig?
every single choice made includes some and excludes others. The problem is that some places back down when an entitled feeling “guest” gets orn’ry enough and causes confusion about the rules. The term is “YES-taurants” and they hurt everyone else.
So, when I said certain people were being weeded out I did not claim to know the mind of Beast or speak for them but to say that yes… a person who gets enraged that a stated, known, set in stone policy will not be changed after the fact at their whim.. that is a certain kind of person. And the policy will more often than not weed them out.
What I say is often done with a sort of dry humor that a) some won’t understand and b) some will understand but take offense to. Can’t say I can’t help it- I can. But I choose not to weed myself out.
I don’t take back what I said about “certain kinds of guests” but I do apologise to Naomi at Beast if anything here has been seen to reflect her feelings because obviously they don’t.
I do wish that patrons would start seeing business owners as fellow equal human beings though. With a right to set limits and enforce them.
The same person who started this by ranting against the rudeness of Beast would also more likely than not be the first person HOWLING foul play if a restaurant cancelled her reservation last minute with claims of “no room at the inn”.
If you want your reservation respected, respect your reservation. I apologise if in my dry humor I came off as saying anything else.
kolibri says
“My guess is that Chef Naomi is deliberately weeding out the stupid, the disorganized and the rude with her policies.”
OK whatever…..
kolibri says
pre·ten·sion (pr-tnshn)
n.
1. A specious allegation; a pretext.
2. A claim to something, such as a privilege or right. See Synonyms at claim.
3. The advancing of a claim.
4. Ostentatious display; pretentiousness.
I think that is exactly the meaning I was looking for. Sorry about the misspelling, but I stand by my word choice.
qv says
Since they claim to charge a fee for late minute resos it would be pretentious to back down, no?
Oh! I get it! It COULD be a pretentious advancing of a claim to deem oneself SO important that a whole policy should be changed just for you..by definition.
Not the best definition though, since pretentiousness and ostentation are very different things. Ostentation would be if you ARE fancy and show it off a bit too much whereas pretention is if you were trying to show off what was never that fancy to begin with.
Stand by your word choice all you want, but in this case the pretention would apply to the entitled consumer, not to the business.
Steve Wino says
Perhaps it depends which dictionary you look in. The one I looked at showed pretention as an alternate, older spelling. Maybe there is someone who blows a whistle and throws a flag when an older spelling is out of date but that belongs on a forum for English majors.
qv says
Correct SteveWino.. and the only reason I brought it up (the spelling) was because the OP was using it in a manner that seemed to show they needed to consult a dictionary.
Other out of date usage is actually pertaining to labour:
“1. (in prestressed-concrete construction) to apply tension to (reinforcing strands) before the concrete is poured. Compare posttension (def. 1).
2. to make (a concrete member) with pretensioned reinforcement. ”
Perhaps we can stop trolling each other kolibri if you would take the time to read the explanation the owner of Beast sent.
I cannot imagine how any rational being could deem “pretentious” her rational.
So, yes, when it is clear that someone is just regurgitating a word they have no knowledge of because it is a common slam on local food boards when a business owner seems to “be gettin’ all uppity” I may call them on the spelling if only so they can go find out what they actually implied.
kolibri says
The claim that I understood you to be advancing was that Naomi as a resteranteur was trying to weed out “stupid” and “unorganized” people, when in fact she is simply enforcing a policy which, as I SAID, I completely agree with. Trying to weed out stupid people is not the same as people who do not eat a Mexican restaurant because they don’t like Mexican food.
And yes, the word pretension could very easily be applied to the rude customer just as easily.
kolibri says
Anyway all this talking about weeding is giving me the munchies.
extramsg says
You’re right. Concerts/sporting events and restaurant reservations are entirely different. Somehow, people are able to commit to an entire season of tickets for concerts and sporting events without calling the Blazers or the Portland Opera “extremely rude” for not refunding their money when they have a scheduling conflict.
Last time I had season tickets for something, I gave away a pair that I couldn’t show up for. Last time I went to a sporting event, I bought the tickets from someone who wasn’t going.
People seem to find ways around problems like this when they take the obligations they make seriously and stop trying to put the responsibility on the other party.
pdx_yogi says
What is “HIYW”?
grapedog says
Burger King® Have It Your Way®
Hold the pickles, hold the lettuce;
special orders don’t upset us.
All we ask is that you let us serve it your way…
(Chorus) Have it your way!
(Basically, the thought that a restaurant exists only for the customer)
PestoGal says
Umm… why the hell else do restaurants exist? Sure, it gives people jobs, may be a creative outlet, but if you don’t have people buying your product, what’s the point in having one?
qv says
“Umm… why the hell else do restaurants exist? Sure, it gives people jobs, may be a creative outlet, but if you don’t have people buying your product, what’s the point in having one?”
I don’t think anyone is trying to say that restaurants don’t exist to serve customers. The point is that EVERY restaurant doesn’t exist to serve EVERY customer. And for many people it isn’t enough to look at a place and/or its policies and say “well, this place apparently wasn’t built with me in mind, I think I’ll go elsewhere”. Most people see a place isn’t for them and get angry/beligerent/frustrated.
That I think is the problem.
If you don’t like Beast/Beasts policies go elsewhere.
But for many people that isn’t enough, they want the place to conform to them.
Restaurants bring out strange animosities in people.
If you don’t like Nike shoes you are pretty unlikely to go online & write nasty reviews & rant to everyone you know about it and try to hurt their business until they make the exact shoe you want. You just buy something else.
polloelastico says
The American Internet Experience has given rise to a wonderfully special brand of self-entitlement where an instance of ephemera or a snapshot in time whence upon somebody demonstrated anything less than complete subservience is now equated with forcefully forcing someone’s jaw open and peeing in their mouth.
Steve Wino says
Frank Lloyd Wright apparently said something to clients who wanted changes to his design along the lines of “you are not worthy.” I want a restaurant that has a vision and executes it well. If I agree with the vision, we have harmony.
MyNextMeal says
Have It Your Way.
Chambolle says
For Pete’s sake…What is it about any RIPE-based anything that causes pages and pages of Internet slathering? It’s stunning. For whatever reason, people always choose to vent about generalities (i.e. reservations) when something that RIPE touches is talked about. It’s almost like people are saving it up for just such an occasion. In the end, it is still free publicity. That, more than any other thing, is their talent. They just happen to be dealing in food.
morris says
The obvious difference between a sporting ticket and a restaurant reservation is one can (and sometimes is) much more easily abused than the other. Some may think making six reservations for the best tables in town on a Tuesday and then calling ones friends around 4:00 on a Friday to see which (if any) they fancy actually honoring that evening all the while not even considering calling the others to cancel anything is a fun game. Some may think otherwise, usually around 7:30 on said Friday night.
jollygrinch says
Maybe a little off topic, but I wanted to respond to this part of Nick’s comment:
“Let me ask you this: if you have tickets to the opera, or tickets to a concert, or tickets to a Blazers game, do you ask for a refund if “an unexpected scheduling conflict” arises? Did they laugh in your face?”
I work for a local theater (stage, not screen) and unfortunately can tell you that many, many people do expect us to accommodate them when they’ve missed a show they’ve purchased tickets for. An intoxicated couple once had to be escorted from a performance. They came back the next day and complained that they had been embarrassed and demanded their money back. They got it.
It’s all part of a larger lack of personal responsibility that disgusts me.
Oh well. For any establishment owners out there: I’m personally much more likely to frequent businesses that enforce policies like cellphone bans, or restrictions on children (when appropriate). Hopefully I’m not alone and to some extent the problem will sort itself out economically. I won’t be losing any sleep at the prospect of not sharing a table with anyone that thinks enforcing a reservation policy is rude.
ryan says
I don’t understand the expectation by Emily that Naomi “budge” on her cancellations policy. Where is there to “budge” to? Once you let people out of their reservation, you’ve effectively killed any hope having a policy around them in the first place. I mean… maybe if there was some awful death in the family or something the owner might decide to take the hit out of the goodness of their own heart, but I’m guessing something as bloodless-sounding as an “unexpected scheduling conflict” wasn’t the end of the world.
Nathan says
I don’t see anywhere in Emily’s post just how much time was given for the cancellation. So I am unsure just how rude or not Naomi was. I can’t see how Naomi could be expected to budge on the day of reservation, but days prior I might see how Emily may have a point.
But as far I can tell, Emily left out key information. Do those judging know something I don’t or have I misread Emily’s post?
naomi says
I almost did this last week when the discussion got heated- but i don’t really like replying much in the blog world.
here it is. Our reservation policy at beast is made very very clear to each and every person who calls in. we ask for a credit card to secure the spots. we tell the customer that we have a STRICT 24 hour cancellation policy- and that if for any reason they fail to give us 24 hours notice- they will be charged $20 per no-show. This includes drops in numbers.
So if a person calls at say 12 noon the day of the reservation and cannot make it- here is what happens. we call down the wait-list if there is one. if someone calls back and fills those spots- the original customer is not charged a fee. if no one calls in for a same day reservation- and no one from our wait-list calls back- we are left with empty spots.
I think someone pointed out earlier (though i don’t have time to peruse all the pasts posts on the matter)- that we are TINY. we do two seatings a night- one at 6 & one at 8:45. We fill up. we make food for 48 people. we are serving a 7 course (counting the palate cleanser) meal for $52 per person! We have foie gras, we serve things like rabbit, and beef tenderloin ($$$)- we have something like 7 items on the charcuterie plate- all of which take a lot of labor to make. we use produce from the straight from the market- i bought 160.00 worth of potatoes (at the same price you do $3.50 a lb. the other day!!). have i made my point? Our check average is something like $85/person. When we loose 2 seats out of our 48 for the night- we just lost money that we need to pay the dishwasher- (which by the way, we ran without for the first 9 months- back when my sous-chef and i were the only people besides our two servers – but working 100 hours a week isn’t sustainable).
So please please understand- that while we might be the only place in PDX doing such strict policy- we do so for a reason. we want to stay in business. the $20 you spent just covered your food we threw away (composted actually)- it didn’t go to anything else- and we aren’t trying to send some kind of snooty message. we just want to pay the bills. and as far as not understanding why we don’t do the thing that simpatica does- and apply your fee to your next meal- my answer is…we already threw the food away. we hope you come back, and we hope you understand. we will make you new food (gladly)- but we can’t get back the $ we already lost…not to mention the list of people who called-and couldn’t get in because we had those spots held.
favorite comment so far was about a sporting event, concert, etc. – when you can’t go- do you ask for your ticket to be refunded?
sabernar says
+1
Excellent response. Makes perfect sense to me and the policy is outlined in advanced. What does everyone have a problem with?
pdx_yogi says
Sounds perfectly reasonable. I fully support your policy.
Long ago I worked for a major local arts organization. And yes, we did in fact have “patrons” fail to show up for a performance and demand a refund or a free ticket for another show!
So yes: clueless SOB’s with an unfathomable sense of entitlement inflict themselves on everyone, everywhere. All they need are enablers. Glad you ain’t one.
Barman Al says
Without trying to be snarky, the fact that your business model requires you to charge a cancellation fee in order to remain profitable might show that there’s a flaw in the plan. Especially when virtually every credit card company will take the consumers side in a dispute because there is no signature authorizing the charge, so you lose the money anyway.
I’ve worked in restaurants in all capacities for 20 years. People are going to cancel their reservations. My favorite nights are Valentines Day and New Years Eve, when people make multiple reservations, and decide where they want to eat at the last minute, never informing the other restaurants. But it’s the nature of the beast (so to speak), and while some people will be gracious and accept a cancellation fee, others will not.
Theodore says
So the fee is only $20? From the way some people were carrying on, I thought it was a lot more.
Sounds like a fine policy to me.
Prone to Hyperbole says
Thanks so much, Naomi, for taking a bit of time I know you don’t really have to make such a gracious, genuinely (almost painfully) heartfelt explanation of your policy(ies). I don’t want to start even more commentary, but I want to just say that the way I see it is that this discussion would NEVER occur in a “real city”. I mean a big, perhaps more cosmopolitan city, like New York or San Francisco. Mature people… mature diners, in serious dining cities expect this sort of policy absolutely. And they would never be petty (or non-busy) enough to try to protest it. (with exceptions I sure). When I eat a Gary Danko, or Screen Door, or The French Laundry / Cafe Fannie, I NEVER run late! If I have to face the very Devil in Hell, I will not run one nano-second late for the reservation I was able to make. When people don’t show up at Michael Mina, or Quince, or Cyrus, those kinds of pro-diners do NOT whine or expect any sort of refund on the charge laid out when the reservation was made. It’s a grown up world. Not a situation where we are getting pushed down on the playground and running to the teacher for retribution.
(Note: I didn’t even read far enough back to Emily’s initial post. So I’m not referring directly to her specific situation (that I know of). But I’m basing my notes on the seemingly over-whelming opposing position to Naomi’s policy of twenty freaking bucks for cancellation. Seriously people… TWENTY DOLLARS! I am currently on a tight budget, but twenty bucks is NOTHING. Especially if you support a small place like Beast enough to want to patronize it. Call it a donation to a good cause. The whole Nation loves Beast (see all the press), yet there are some among us right here in tiny little PDX who seem to want to tear it down until Naomi can’t even buy her daughter new shoes. Twenty bucks. Or just show up.
Prone to Hyperbole says
Oops, I meant Slanted Door. Duh…
Lexuh says
Reminds me of the restaurant scenes in this YouTube clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2a8TRSgzZY
Prone to Hyperbole says
AWESOME! Loved the link. Thanks
Knife Skillz says
For a restaurant like Beast, which basically has two orders (seatings) a night, with all the work that goes into pulling off a multi-course meal for so many people at once, having a cancellation policy like they do makes perfect sense.
I think a better analogy would be like ordering food at a restaurant and then cancelling it before it arrived. When you put in your reservation, you’re basically telling them, “go ahead and make it, we’ll be there”.
Prone to Hyperbole says
Bravo! You made an awesome point, in a cool manner, that is rock solid. Thank you! You got more skillz than just with that ginzu! ;-)
Hunter says
Seems like a lot of hullbaloo over nothing. I completely support Naomi’s right to enforce any policy she likes…it’s her place. I will not dine at Beast because I think the policy is far too harsh (and quite unique in our fair city) but that’s my choice. It won’t break her. End of story.
extramsg says
“Too harsh” as a moral issue — as in, out of principal, you won’t support an establishment that has such a policy? Or “too harsh” as a pratical issue — in other words, you just don’t want to be bound by it?
The former would seem “too harsh” a judgment, the latter just a personal choice.
Hunter says
The latter Nick, definitely the latter.
Food Dude says
Big breath. Enough semantic discussions. Let’s get back to the topic at hand.
qv says
Yes sir.
Perhaps I am just bitter and twisted because I can’t go so hearing people who can complain about things they already were told makes me…. kinda feisty.
Mea maxima culpa.
kolibri says
yes sir.
extramsg says
btw, Food Dude, maybe in the top part where you break off the discussion, you could include quotes of both the original poster and my response to them so that the comments from yeasty secretion make sense. You might also link to the original, not just mention it.
Extra Yeast Extract says
Takes one to know one. Ha.
Good suggestion though.
Food Dude says
QV, it’s not you, the system only allows a reply of 5 deep.
whatthef says
The fact is that Beast has a policy they enforced and a patron complained about it on the internet. It seems to me each of them has the right to do exactly what they did and move on with their lives. What I can’t understand is the position (rantings) of qv and extramsg, both of whom I understand are restaurant owners.
These guys seem to go out of their way to piss people off and alienate potential customers.
Also is it just me, or is the same guy, who seems to have an overly critical view of how customers treat waiters as lesser human beings, offered to “make my waitress give you a lap dance”? If a mere customer made such a suggestion (joking or not) my guess is it would have been deemed highly offensive.
extramsg says
The original commenter didn’t just complain about the policy on the internet. They made a judgment about Naomi as a person based on the policy that seemed ignorant and guilty of the charge they themselves were making about Naomi. No one is challenging Emily’s right to complain or even make ignorant judgments about people.
Adam says
Whattheef, you seem like the stereotypical showcase of American arrogance and self-righteousness. You believe you are entitled to anything that pops into your little brain whenever you so choose, unbridled by anything with the semblance of consequences. Extramsg has made excellent points about both the position of a restaurant owner (especially of one who operates such a specialty dining experience as Beast) in this situation and the utter petulance of this discussion’s instigator’s repugnant actions (slamming Beast on Yelp without ever having eaten there, a policy that is widely practiced on both that site and Citysearch). He isn’t try to “piss people off and alienate potential customers,” he’s defending the rights of a restaurant owner. Contrary to the old adage, the customer is not always right, and the sooner people start to accept this, the closer we’ll be to reaching a place of mutual respect between owner and customer.
Please refrain from posting on PF&D again until you’ve extracted your head from your ass.
PestoGal says
Wow. Just WOW. Pot calling kettle black. I’m pretty much at a loss for words. Wait, that’s not true. I can think of two: “ass” and “hole.”
fatpuller says
In comparing comments on people’s dining experiences at Beast versus their reservation policy, the difference is telling. People on food sites frequently seem more interested in mud-slinging, arguing and verbal masturbation than in talking about the experience of dining AT the restaurants where they’ve eaten. Also, while I’m all for freedom of expression, I have to say it’s pretty lame to tack on that qv runs {redacted by FD}. That seemed more a cry for everyone to stand behind you and not go to her amazing izakaya (not just a restaurant, not just a bar) in protest. As she stated, many of her comments aren’t meant to be taken 100% seriously. How about people who are so intent on saying which restaurants they will go to or won’t go to based on whatever reason they seem to have actually go there and come back and tell the rest of the community why they like said restaurant(s)? Or our food blogs/forums just another place for people to vent and bicker? I find that Yelp manages to seem more intelligent somedays.
kolibri says
I agree- whatever differences I may have had with QV, I do not think it was right to bring her out like that. For that reason I will be dining there very soon.
qv says
Of note, and to the point of my indignant and perhaps overly vehement postings… the person who starting this all gave Beast a foul review on Yelp despite never having eaten there.
This was my point all along.
Funny, when I started defending the practice (charging cancellation fees) I though she was charging the full dinner price.
At only $20 per head for a last minute cancellation I’d say Beast is being generous.
To those who have kind regard for my shabby little venture despite my apparently anti-social tendencies… hahaha and thanks.
Mention this verbal fistfight at you-know-where and get a free special something from me… ‘coz I just hate on my guests like that :-) I promise my waitress WILL NOT shag your lap. Because that is just fucking WRONG.
qv says
ok..just got the reference to waitron lap dance.. and since those comments remain but removed (by the topic split)from the context in which they were said… a poster commented on how much inappropriate over the top attention customers expect from some places. In jest I said that in appreciation for his post I would have my server give him a lap dance. If you can’t understand the joke behind that.. well then I am truly sorry.
FoodDude. I promise. I’m done. ….
pdx_yogi says
Uncool, LizG. What are you trying to do, organize a boycott of {redacted by FD} because you don’t appreciate a few satirical comments by the owner, and so you will huff and puff in humorless feminist indignation (I know that is a redundant expression) until her business comes crashing down?
Way uncool to drag a business into this especially in these hard times, a place that is not even the focus of the topic.
kolibri says
Wow, nice touch on the slam against feminists. Hmmm…
whatthef says
You’re right, qv’s restaurant is not a part of the discussion, yet the degree of contempt slung in the direction of customers who are considered stupid if they get stuck in traffic is enough to keep me away.
Very few service businesses, not only restaurants, can afford not to be sensitive to customers needs even when those customers are less than professional. Most of us deal with it and are smart enough not to bitch about it in such a public forum. We may choose to “weed out” troublesome customers, yet what these two restaurant owners have succeeded in doing – in tough economic times – is alienate people who might have been a customer.
Personally I would never want to be a customer in either msg’s or qv’s restaurant based on their own opinions expressed in this forum. That in my opinion is bad business management on their part.
JandJ says
I don’t know that I’d take it quite a far as refusing to patronize one or both restaurants myself. However, your comment about “contempt slung in the direction of customers” resonated with me and is what drove my earlier response to QV. A lot of comments here about customer attitudes seem to be over-generalized, and while they might apply to some inconsiderate people who patronize restaurants, I’d argue that there are a whole lot of others (many of whom hang out here) who are nothing like that at all.
I’m all for policies that weed out inconsiderate jerks who end up costing restaurateurs (particularly the smaller ones) a lot of money. I’d much rather not see the rest of us lumped in with that crowd, or worse, penalized because of them. I regard a “no reservations” policy as a form of penalty and as such, most often won’t patronize those establishments. Yes, that means I’ve been “weeded out” by design. Kind of a bummer from my perspective, but totally understand the thinking and respect the owner’s right to make that decision. (Won’t stop me from grumbling about it though) :-)
LizG says
No pdx_yogi, I did not (and do not) intend to “incite a boycott” of qv’s restaurant. That never even crossed my mind. And, anyway, I definitely don’t wield that kind of influence.
Besides I wouldn’t want to rob anyone else of the pleasure of dining or drinking there. I’ve heard it’s a pretty swell place.
I guess I shouldn’t have mentioned the name of qv’s restaurant in my comment, although I assumed that most people (certainly anyone who also reads http://www.portlandfood.org) already knew which place she owns.
I think my mistake was allowing myself to get more and more annoyed with qv’s comments over the past year or so without responding earlier. Many of those posts suggested a mindset that I found distasteful.
germaine says
Come on people, we all know what restaurants extramsg’s and qv’s are. And if you, as a restaurant owner, happen to worry so much about being outed on a public forum, maybe you should reevaluate the tone of your comments on these forums.
I have to say that both of these restaurant owners have successfully “weeded me out” as a customer because I find both their comments on this forum, and especially on pf.org, extremely annoying and unprofessional. For the most part, it’s not even the content of these people’s comments, but the tone and the way they go on and on and on… I know many people love their restaurants, and that is great, but I prefer to go someplace with less annoying ownership. It’s just surprising to me that some owners focus more on ranting around on public forums than providing good service for their customers. If you can afford to not give a crap about how people perceive you, more power to you, I guess.
Theodore says
What makes you think that their restaurants have bad service?
Melissa says
I am finding it quite amusing that a debate which started with calling Naomi Pomeroy rude for not honoring a reservation turned into a hate fest against the biggest pedants of portland foodiedom for defending her.
So, if my math is right,
Naomi=rude for not going into a diatribe
MSG, QV=rude for expressing said diatribes
Y’all should just have a big circle jerk and get it over with.
LizG says
Actually Melissa your math IS wrong. You’re making a big (mistaken) assumption when you suggest that those of us who have found fault with QV also necessarily disapprove of Naomi and/or the reservation cancellation policy at Beast.
First of all, I really like Beast and I have nothing against Naomi. In fact, I think she’s one of the few restaurant owners who is able to comment without sounding too silly, strident or defensive. Secondly I don’t believe Beast’s cancellation policy is harsh at all (especially considering the fact that they try to fill the seats with people on their waiting list before they charge the person who has cancelled).
Finally, I think you meant “the biggest pedants of portland foodiedom” as a compliment to QV and MSG. But calling someone a “pedant” is actually less than complimentary. Perhaps you meant to describe them as “pundits”?
germaine says
Melissa, you misunderstood. As I said in the original post on Beast, I really like Beast. I’ve always really liked Naomi, long before Beast. I think her reservation policy is very fair, and I would never call her rude. My comments had nothing to do with that.
qv says
“It’s just surprising to me that some owners focus more on ranting around on public forums than providing good service for their customers.”
I happened to be closed for the week for equipment installation, Germaine.
But I’m sure that all my regulars who come in 2-4 times a week because they love the service are very happy that you are looking out for them. I will be sure to tell them you care.
What’s happening at your job while you rant? Or is it again that YOU have a right to voice an opinion and YOU have a right to sit down at a computer but for some reason business owners don’t? Do we need to ask your permission to go on dates? Use the potty? Have a day off? Or would those too show how we don’t care about our customers?
Sorry, this all just really smacks of elitism.
The hired help gettin’ all uppity and whatnot.
germaine says
Goodness, here we go again. Case in point. I never said your restaurant had bad service. I’m sure in person you’re really great. I think the way you go on in the blogs is annoying. I happen to value professionalism, harmony, and respect. From what I’ve seen from you in the blogs, I came to think you don’t share those values. You can rant on all you like, but the more you do, the more my opinion is confirmed.
Theodore says
Seriously? Wow.
whatthef says
Did it ever occur to you that some of the people commenting here and more importantly, reading these comments are also business owners who happen to like to eat out now and again. Maybe we also have to suck it up more often than we want. But you know what, that’s life. What remains shocking to me is that you seem to remain oblivious to just how negative you come across. I certainly hope for your sake that there is a trust fund covering your back. If you were my partner, employee, or if I was an investor in your restaurant, I would be seriously concerned about what kind of crazy pill you are taking every time you get close to a keyboard.
germaine says
I agree. QV, you come across as a little volatile and immature. Like I said, maybe in person you are just terrific. I just assumed the self-righteousness you display in the blogs is an indication of the service you provide.
And don’t automatically pull the elitism-card when you get some criticism. That’s very un-original. You seem to be holding on to a lot of past anger and resentment to keep bringing up the elitism and caste-system thing. Move on.
qv says
ya’ll are the best! thanks for proving my point for me!
mczlaw says
Generally agree with the sentiment “Emily” has no valid complaint. Beast’s cancellation penalty policy is a sensible one that other restaurant owners might consider adopting to avoid flakes with contrived “conflicts.” Except in unusual circumstances, I wouldn’t give future credit either. The flakes can be devastating to the bottom line.
OTOH, generally agree with the sentiment that known restaurant owners are better off–in the pursuit of their own best business interest–maintaining a grudging silence in response to controversies that erupt in these food-focused forums. It’s not a matter of rights, but one of prudence. I don’t get why someone would want to risk alienating potential customers when it is completely avoidable. Nearly all the owners I know understand and abide by the code of silence.
–mcz
extramsg says
You realize the irony in this, right? Michael, you’re a restaurant owner.
mczlaw says
Yes, I am the proud owner of 4.5% of the K&Z empire.
But there is no irony to my comment: the place is not named after me, I don’t manage it and my livelihood is not at risk if someone doesn’t like what they read here.
In any event, I rarely post to these forums because there is precious little to be gained by doing so. . .and I would be surprised if anyone refuses to frequent K&Z solely because of my sporadic commentary.
–mcz
CO says
well no, mcz, thats not the ONLY reason someone would refuse to frequent K&Z. Although, it definately might be ONE of them. Just sayin’.
Prone to Hyperbole says
QV and ExtraMSG,
Jealousy is the best form of flattery.
I think a good amount of people who vent against you from a PERSONAL angle, rather than one based on the flavor of your food, are simply jealous that either: A. They didn’t think of it first, or B. They haven’t become part of the “in” crowd (their perception) who revel in the feasts and general festivities that you both bring to your respective clientele though your decidedly unique places of business, and the events that you organize out of sheer passion for all things yummy.
(do i get a reward for run-on sentences?)
You both run awesome and fun restaurants. Many patrons merely come back because they like the food. But many of us in this small city, who believe in supporting local businesses, come back because we, as patrons, really like you (in many cases), and we like / love your establishments (the food, vibe, fellow clientele, service, etc.), and most importantly we love your food! Isn’t that the point of a restaurant?
I should clarify for other readers, I’ve never met MSG, and only know QV through eating there so much. So this is not a deal where I’m pimping my friends. In fact, let me say this now lest I become close to these people and feel bad saying it later. Every one of my close chef friends (especially the ones who own restaurants) are freaking crazy! Insane, like any other true artist worth their weight in opium. And they’re not always the best communicators (so maybe cyber forums aren’t the best way to communicate). But these are real, if not down right GOOD, people that are getting bashed. Everyone give everyone else a little breathing room.
Oh, by the way, this response was spawned by the recurring comments that people have “been weeded out” (read: weeded themselves out) of even TRYING these people’s restaurants because they pose some moral, ethical, or downright nit-picky issue with a policy they haven’t even had exercised “against” them. Again: Chefs are people. Potentially crazy people. If you like the food they serve, eat there. Or at least try it so you know what you’re talking about. When I used to go to church, I didn’t stop going because of, or blog against, a pastor who I didn’t see eye to eye with on many issues. I don’t agree with the way in which mass-slaughtered chickens are processed. But I eat pollo tacos at taco trucks that are NOT using “organic, free range, air conditioned, massaged chickens”.
I go to QV’s place a lot, and I have to say it’s some of the best food in PDX. And, to boot, it’s just a lot of damn fun going there! Interesting regulars who are fun to talk to, a sense of family, really attentive service (in Portland!), it’s CHEAP, and the music and videos are SOOOO much fun! Not for everyone, I understand. But again, I feel like this place was lifted out of a bigger, more metro city, and placed here. And actually has business enough to stay open! Unlike *Vigne, *Apotheke, and other really great big-city-vibe joints that have not been so fortunate.
(*Intersting side note: the places I mentioned also always got called “snooty”, “closed minded”, “elitist”, or “not customer friendly” by people who either never went, or tried them once only to give up when they weren’t allowed to literally ignore the menu, dismiss the Mission Statement, and try to order something they’re already comfortable with. Yet, in fact, both places were warm and friendly, with attentive and knowledgeable service who made each experience special.)
As for MSG, his restaurants are nifty, and a fun addition to the city. (love the sodas!). But the main thing that irks me on this strand is that some have told him to shut up, and that no one wants to hear his commentary (basically). I’m thinking, “WHAT?!?” There’s no better, more qualified voice in the city (at least on blogs) to really give detailed and knowledgeable statements about Portland’s food scene, from Troutdale to Aloha (and more). Complete with pictures that actually help one understand. Complete with a true working knowledge of what the hell he’s talking about. He’s not the Old-Guard of elitist food reviews who, for decades or more, have enjoyed the exclusivity of a private life of anonymity and carousing with only his like ilk. Also, his passion is contagious. I’ve never met him, or even talked to him on a phone, yet I can tell by his “voice” here and mainly on his site that he is a genuinely nice guy. Seems fun. Probably very funny. Great sense of humor in posting! Even when it seems he’s getting heated up, he’ll thrown in a “winking” quip, or take a harsh quip back, that makes it clear he’s just playing along. That dude knows more about Mexican (and other) food than Paula Dean knows about butter and cream cheese.
Okay, I’m rambling. I’m just saying, can’t people just be cordial, if not get along? My siblings and I get along very well! But we’re probably more different than Thomas Keller from Bobby Flay (for those of you who don’t realize this… that’s very, very different).
More importantly, even if we DON’T get along, it doesn’t matter! Just eat at a restaurant if you like the food. Period. It has NOTHING to do with the typing skills, attitude, or behavior of a chef or any other restaurant employee. I happen to frequent restaurants, bars, foodie shops, and other businesses in PORTLAND where I’m personally aware that the owners and/or chefs are convicted felons, violent, thieves, alcoholics, drug abusers, negligent of their children, home-wreckers, etc. But it’s not my place to get involved in that. I go there because I like what I get from their business, as a consumer. If you start playing God there, then you’ll be shocked to find out that they same offenses are common, probably in your own work places, churches, synagogues, and even homes etc.
We have to stop judging each other.
And even if you feel you must judge, it’s hard to bitch when you’re mouth is full of the best Hamachi in town, for the lowest prices in town.
It’s a restaurant. Not a shooting gallery. Just TRY it before claiming you were “weeded out” as if by force. Bless your heart….
My best regards to ALL business owners who are trying to make it. Don’t sweat the cyber-rantings of me or anyone else. Please just keep making yummy food and let the majority of us appreciate and thank you for it.
JandJ says
Is this the point in the thread where we all are supposed to sing “Kumbaya”? :-)
I agree that it’s all about the food. But for me, anyway, I can’t take the chef and/or owner completely out of the equation. It’s hard not to be a bit influenced by their remarks here — that’s the risk they take by blogging. It you want to “put it out there” all the way as a restaurant owner, then you need to be prepared to piss a few people off and maybe even lose a customer or two. If you’re opinionated and active on this site, you’re gonna get judged, no matter how good the Hamachi is. All that said, I have to admire folks like QV and ExtraMSG for sharing their expertise and opinions and being visible here whether I agree with everything they say or not.
Extra Yeast Extract says
Food Dude,
I am new to all of this. Do we have the option to vote Msg and QV off the site? Can your readers choose to “weed” them out? Would you have enough commentary if they weren’t campaigning?
I implore you, put it to a vote.
PS: I don’t want to start any rumors, but I have heard that QV and Msg were behind the Rajneeshee salmonella scare in the 80’s. Just saying.
intthecups says
C’MON DUDES! (most) people here have a point, some even have good points! i think we all agree that, uh, good food is an amazing thing and we should love all who go through the effort to provide the dining experience (farmers, workers, haulers, cooks, chefs, servers, bartenders, bussers, dishwashers etc. etc.- i hope i don’t get a new a-hole torn for not listing absolutely everyone involved!). emily, sorry you got lambasted, but you kinda gotta go through with your part of the deal, you know? different places (like people) have different rules and limits and ways of doing… you gotta honor everyones way. you have to respect the differences in any relationship. there were some things said in the previous posts that, man, i would loooove to go crazy on!! but, im not in the mood and my point is everyone is right in a way- the only trouble comes when people dont respect one anothers opinions. maybe we have been or will be in emily or qv or extramsg shoes now or one day. dont hate! every aspect of being in the restaurant (or any!) business is challenging! there are grumbles between parties in every situation in life. in this case, there has been a restaurant vs. public spat kind of thing. i personally, oops-here we go- think that there is sort or a im a diner elitism going on that SUCKS to be on the other end of. people DO feel entitled when they go spend their $ on a meal. when i go see a movie i want it to be great!!! the difference being, if someone is less than totally satisfied with a movie they wont rant at the employees of the theatre, or attack a theatre for showing it. if someone does something not quite right at the grocery store or bank, i dont rant at them or berate their company online. we are human- not all is perfect. for us all- respect differences, do your best and try to see each situation from all angles… and, above all, thank you, regardless of your reservation system or personal controversial-or-not thoughts about food and guests and all a dat. THANK YOU, my industry peeps of portland, to all of you that create, serve and make happen the chronic food and drink that we are privileged to enjoy in this town.
love,
(big hippie)
~inthecups
PS: pardon my lack of attention to punctuation etc. im no care’n
Bigfoot says
Wow!
Is the internet a giant rorschach test or what? People open up and say things they usuaully would never say in public outside of a wake with an open bar (the best kind for sure).
That said, I have long complained about expensive restaurants not taking reservations. I TOTALLY support Namoi’s policy and think she is generous to not charge the 20$/person fee if she can fill the table after you cancel.
You don’t agree, don’t go there, just like I will refuse to wait in the rain for a table at some place that doesn’t take a reservation.