This article on Salon.com interviews an “Italian coffee master”. According to Salon, Giorgio Milos, the master barista at the high-end Trieste, Italy-based Illy coffee, American coffee is, for lack of a better word, crap.
He launches into a screed about US coffee, before going on a tour of NYC’s “best” coffeehouses. Finally, they arrive at Stumptown Coffee. From Salon.com,
“What is called espresso here sometimes really isn’t espresso,” he wrote. (The response from readers made him qualify that, saying that any drink pulled on an espresso machine is ‘technically’ an espresso, but baristas shouldn’t be playing fast and loose with the traditional water-coffee-temperature-time formula.)…
…Our last stop is Stumptown, the superstar Portland transplant in the Ace Hotel on 29th Street. It is the one place where Milos has been before, several times, because he likes the vibe, but each time he’s come away hoping for a better espresso the next visit. When he gets his espresso there is a white stripe across the crema instead of the tigerskin. “See that? It’s burnt. The machine is probably too hot.” A second espresso arrives. It’s also burnt. “This is less than one ounce. Very concentrated, very sour, very salty.”
We leave Stumptown, Milos giving it the worst rating of the places we have visited today. As we exit onto the street, however, we both notice the same thing. There is a line of Stumptown fans going out the door and onto the sidewalk. He might not like what he’s buying, but they keep coming back for more.
My opinion? Let’s take a collection to send Milos back to Italy
bananadan says
It is remarkable to me how burnt, sour and over-extracted most commercial espressos are. I can believe this is the result of combining excessively hot water with excessively toasted coffee. Last time I was in NYC I managed to find one place that made an espresso that didn’t taste like burning tires, while the rest were simply repulsive. I am willing to accept that perhaps I am an espresso heathen, but I greatly prefer shots made with a dark French Roast, which to me comes out much smoother and richer in flavor, without the eyeball-exploding bitterness so common to so-called Italian Roast coffees. Stumptown, I am aware, would beg to differ (that dark roasting destroys all the subtle nuances of coffee flavor.) I can do without the nuances; the only decent lighter-roast coffee I have tasted in years was prepared on the Clover machine at Tart over on Division Street next to Taste Unique, and that is most likely because the temperature and extraction are both carefully controlled. I also prefer a longer shot, so the experience lasts more than two seconds. But, as they say, it is all a matter of taste. So, right now I would have to say I am on the same side as Milos. I say keep him here as USA Espresso Critic.
CO says
the Starbucks at Pioneer Square is rocking a Clover….only one in Oregon. That being said, it’s still Starbucks coffee.
bananadan says
Actually the little dessert shop Tart on Division got the last Clover machine delivered before Starbucks bought the entire company so they could monopolize the technology.
CO says
so does Tart still have/use one? with decent coffee?
Siedenburg says
As we all know, Starbucks burns their coffee beans and people continue going there also. Either Americans like that taste, or just don’t know what they’re missing.
robert says
The French also make terrible espresso, but Milo would probably agree they are probably better dressed than Americans. In any case I love my espresse in France. Nothing however is as memorable as almost any caffe I’ve had in Italy. I can, as a friend of mine likes to qualify, also remember what I was wearing.
livetoeat says
Too bad he didn’t go to the new Coava Coffee Bar on SE Grand and try a shot of their Ardi. Ahhh. Or what about Spella? The problem with many espresso bars is inconsistency. I think a lot of that has to do with the baristas.
snowyaker says
Yep, plenty to like at Coava and Spella. I always wince then smile at people who think they are the authority who should tell other people what they should enjoy. I don’t like Starbucks at all, but I don’t hold it against someone who does. And as for Stumptown, local pride aside, it’s better than any coffee I’ve found in Manhattan. Ok, New York transplants let me have it as I’m sure it’s out there.
I’m with Dude on this one. Milo should go back to Italy for espresso or don’t drink the stuff here. I don’t complain about Starbucks weak, burnt espresso because I don’t drink it.
polloelastico says
I say we keep him here because you always need someone to modulate the hordes of hipster sheep wearing skinny jeans and wrapping Urban Outfitter keffiyehs around their necks. Like the kinds that would wait in line for coffee.
Tommy says
I still have yet to see one of these hipster keffiyehs everybody’s been going on about. The last keffiyeh I remember seeing was on Yassir Arafat.
DinahDavis says
I have to agree with Milo; the Italians make a superb espresso, and most of what I’ve tasted in America doesn’t even come close in quality. Just because people line up for crap doesn’t make it any less crappy. McDonald’s is raking in the bucks, last I heard…
Matt Brown says
Comparing the Italian Tradition against the “new” American Tradition is a game for fools. It is a lot like comparing the electric bass to the upright bass; yes they often play the same role, but they are dramatically different in every other respect.
Milo can stay, but he should spend his time in Italian Cafe’s and stop wasting his time reviewing things that he has no drive to learn about.
cbright67 says
Giorgio is a great guy – super knowledgeable about espresso and passionate about it. He’s not bad-mouthing Stumptown, just that that location doesn’t have any quality control on their baristas in the NYC location. In fact, his hope for better is a compliment! Everyone on this list would bitch interminably if a chef cooked a quality steak to well-done oblivion. Same goes for espresso and Giorgio calls that location of Stumptown out for it. Wanting to send him back to Italy for that comment smacks of hypocrisy, methinks.
snowyaker says
I don’t know. Sounds like another guy who thinks his way of doing things is the only right way. It’s not like Duane Sorenson just found out about espresso yesterday. I mean sure he’s not Italian …
Jason L. says
Having never been to Italy, I’ve wondered how a “real” Italian espresso would compare to what we drink here. I’ve wondered the same thing about pizza, but I don’t think that would stop me from liking what we have here. I guess that is why they call it Northwest Cuisine and Italian Cuisine, there is not just one. I know people who would laugh when I make a bechamel, but it tastes just fine to me.
MrDonutsu says
Bring some Europeans over to try any of our microbrews and they’ll say the same thing. Too much, too big, too strong, all wrong, blah blah blah…
But that being said, what planet was this (I’m assuming American) comment from: “the ultra-ristretto, staggeringly bitter shots being pulled by the likes of Vivace and Vita [both in Seattle] have nothing to do with espresso other than being a fascinating misuse of the machine … It’s undrinkable swill fit only for burying under a half-liter of foamed milk and flavorings (and THAT, friends, is America’s unique contribution to coffee culture).”
What? Have you even been to either Vita or Vivace (no flavorings actually offered, etc.)
Amoureuse says
Cafe Vita pulls a great shot….but it’s not like any I have had in Italy ( Tuscany, Rome ) maybe its the fact that your there. But I ate at an “agro-tourismo” in Chianti and our host called American Espresso – “browm colored water”. You really notice the difference when you come back home, the espresso here, does taste like brown water.
Again, Cafe Vita pulls a good shot, same with Spella.
Foamer says
Don’t send him back to Italy – stick him behind the counter and have him practice what he preaches.
Then judge the results.
The man may have a point.
Personally, I prefer The Human Bean or Dutch Bros. to Starbucks. It’s just that’s it’s usually easier to find a Starbucks.
James B. says
I agree with matt. Beyond that I find that many Italians are so enthralled with thier own coffee and food that they can’t be competant judge’s of anyone else’s. I personally enjoy “new” American espresso’s, not so much stumptown, but extracto, coava, amongst others. I often find Italian espresso’s to be roasted too long rendering them characterless. Milos can go or stay, but he isn’t a worthy judge.
Rarian Rakista says
Some of the concoctions coming out of coffee houses are rather obscene. Every holiday I cringe when I walk into a coffee shop to smell their gingerbread, pumpkin or peppermint abominations.
kelly says
But I love my gingerbread pumpkin pie served in a pie crust cup latte, it’s so…..authentic.
Rarian Rakista says
The bacon man lives in a bacon house.
mzwong says
“See that? It’s burnt. The machine is probably too hot.” A second espresso arrives. It’s also burnt. “This is less than one ounce. Very concentrated, very sour, very salty.”
This is exactly what I think of Stumptown espresso and I can’t understand why I seem to be the only one. Every new roaster in Portland that I’ve tried has that same Stumptown sour taste. I think the Italian is correct. I’ve had better espresso pulled by indifferent Italians at train stations and cafes in Italy than by any “barista” here wanking off by taking 10 minutes to pull a shot. It shouldn’t take that long, and if it does, it should taste a whole lot better.
MrDonutsu says
Wait, our espresso is simultaneously (too) “concentrated” and “brown water”?
And at 10 minutes a shot, you’re actually asserting that any of the roasters here in Portland are only serving 6 customers an hour (3 if they’re ordering doubles)?
I roll my eyes.
Diane says
^^ What mzwong said.
zumpie says
Wow. Stumptown’s crappy, tastes like dirt and twigs product got called out AGAIN! By someone who knows a whole lot more about it. Who would’ve thought that eventually someone would see that the emperor has no clothes?
As for people lining up: 1) Starbuck’s tastes like water (and that’s something Europeans have said about USA coffee for decades), yet they have a cult like following. 2)In other words, PT Barnum was right, there really IS one born every minute.
I could also get into certain political movements and the easily duped, but that doesn’t really belong here.
Terrell says
So true about the burnt flavor. And their espresso is way too short. I buy their beans to use at home because there are not a lot of alternatives in Portland but I’ll never pay for one of their shots again.
snowyaker says
Not a lot of alternatives here? Really? You must have just stepped off the boat from Italy then. You’re funny.
MrDonutsu says
“Not a lot of alternatives in Portland”
Again, are you people all being facetious?
livetoeat says
When I moved to Seattle in 1982 I discovered the best coffee I had ever tasted in my life. There where two little places in Pike Place Market one was called Starbucks and one was called Stewart Brothers (now Seattle’s Best). I owe a debt of gratitude to Starbucks for not only teaching me that there was something better than Folgers out there, but also for teaching me how to make coffee by slowly pouring hot water over the coffee in a cone filter filled with fresh roasted beans – sound familiar? They later taught me how to make french pressed coffee correctly. That being said, as time went on I had the pleasure of discovering coffee from other roasters, including just about every micro roaster in Portland. Coffee has developed into such an art form that when I had my first Coava Ardi cappuccino at Barista, I thought I had died on gone to coffee heaven. We have so many coffee choices, not to mention preparation methods, that we will never all agree on “the best”. One of the top wine masters in the country said he tastes wine like this: takes a sip of one glass and says,”tastes good.” Tastes a sip of another glass and says, “tastes bad.” Bottom line, a lot of the coffee/ espresso debate comes down to personal taste.
confit says
Truly, it is very difficult to find a decent espresso in PDX. I believe part of the problem is the fact that so few people actually order espresso – they order cappucino-machiata-frappacino-mac-o-rooney. I occasionally order a double espresso and get that weird “huh” look. But I prefer to have it at home, where I can use my own choice of beans and do it the way I prefer, which is definitely more European style.
That said, I had the best espresso in my life at a roadside cafe’ in the Dominican Republic. Espresso nirvana…
Tommy says
There’s a Stumptown in Amsterdam now! Can ya believe that? Amsterdam! Wow!
sweet meat says
I think he is full of shit about getting a white stripe on the surface of his espresso and that being an indicator that it is burnt. It’s a visual cue to a barista that the best extraction is done and to end the shot. My experience with drinking shots from Stumptown is that sometimes they pull their shots a little too short. (1.5 oz) That’s not limited to Stumptown. I prefer 1.75 oz personally. Here is more bullshit from the Italian:
“Water: 1 oz. Coffee: 7 to 8.5 g. Temperature: 200 degrees F. Time of extraction: No more than 30 seconds. But plenty of baristas from Brooklyn to San Francisco, from Chicago to Miami, are using as much as 20 grams of coffee in an ounce of water, which, says Milos, makes an espresso look syrupy and sexy but is too overpowering to taste.”
2oz shots !!! Now that is some brown water. IMO The best espresso comes from approx. 20 grams of coffee for 1.5 to 1.75 oz double shots. He says he is getting plenty of 1 oz double shots, that would be nasty . He needs to come to Portland and he’ll get proper espresso.
Also he is out pimping the second rate Illy and we are supposed to trust what he knows about quality. Please.
Wes Russell says
I happen to think Giorgio Milos is totally on mark here and I’m glad we’re getting this all out on the the table.
I would like to discuss with Milo “What true pasta is and how the Italians have been ruining it”.
We all know that the Italians have been dabbling in the art of noodle making for the last 700 years.
They made a mockery of well established techniques dating back some 2000bc, nearly 3500 years before
they even knew what pasta was.
The Italians are using completely the wrong type of flour and smothering the pasta with completely inappropriate
sauces. Seriously, I don’t even know how they can keep a plate of that sludge down.
And Milos, don’t get me started on a proper automobile. You Italians would have Karl Benz rolling in his grave.